tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4950135604886606031..comments2024-03-28T09:14:32.869-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE REFORM OF THE REFORM, PART II: THE CLERGY, THE RELIGIOUS AND THE LAITY, RECOVERING CATHOLIC IDENTITYFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13287998268210402162013-05-21T15:19:33.519-04:002013-05-21T15:19:33.519-04:00I made my first HC in 1958 so never had to keep th...I made my first HC in 1958 so never had to keep the old fast, which was 'nil by mouth' including water from midnight. The 11 am Sung Mass had plenty of communicants, since an early breakfast was permissible (and drinks up to an hour before reception). Why three hours was reduced to one, which makes it nugatory, is a mystery to me.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88598146230826630162013-05-21T09:39:07.456-04:002013-05-21T09:39:07.456-04:00John, that's funny, because I fast from midnig...John, that's funny, because I fast from midnight until after Mass, Just To Be Sure. My version of the '62 MR has a page of instruction concerning fasting and I am not sure but what it merely muddies the waters a little more. It seems to encourage the 'long' fast but allows for the one hour. Our weekly bulletin has the required and the 'traditional' guidelines for fasts and other allowances so people can understand the difference. Our priest is not altogether happy with the '62, which he views as a little to modern for his tastes!!rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78644688732797111222013-05-21T07:30:47.357-04:002013-05-21T07:30:47.357-04:00A Mass said according to the norms of 1964 or 1967...A Mass said according to the norms of 1964 or 1967 could not be said to be an abuse, since these norms were approved by the Sacred Congregation of Rites, albeit on an interim basis. The 1971 Indult granted to England and Wales (the so-called 'Agatha Christie Indult') specified the Mass of 1967 which is more a re-run of the Novus Ordo than an adaptation of the Roman Rite. However, Cardinal Heenan had already gained an Indult in 1967 to allow the celebration of the 1962 Mass, and so Indult Masses used this rite.<br /><br />Similarly, if a community chose to celebrate the pre-1955 Ordo for Holy Week, they would exceeding the provisions of SP, but would hardly be committing a liturgical abuse. Mixing of rites does count as a liturgical abuse, however. <br /><br />One thing puzzles me - if post-1962 canonical changes involving CITH, EMHC and female servers do not apply to the EF, then surely we should be fasting for three hours before Communion?John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64211720498128343562013-05-21T06:03:04.764-04:002013-05-21T06:03:04.764-04:00Just want to say that this post sums up well the c...Just want to say that this post sums up well the current situation in the Church. However, the speed of return a firm Catholic identity is still only in first gear. Time for a "Transition" check-up.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74184489359500144472013-05-20T20:12:44.352-04:002013-05-20T20:12:44.352-04:00John Nolan, how can it be said that, "To cele...John Nolan, how can it be said that, "To celebrate according to the 1964 revisions would be irregular, but would not be a liturgical abuse?"<br /><br />SP specifically derogated from all post-1962 inventions (except vernacular Low Mass readings, vernacular High/Solemn Mass repeat readings, and the changed Good Friday Prayer), so doesn't that make it an abuse, not just irregular?ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12176353874513671462013-05-20T14:39:58.747-04:002013-05-20T14:39:58.747-04:00Father Kavanugh, you are right.
My meaning wasn&#...Father Kavanugh, you are right.<br /><br />My meaning wasn't clear from my writing: I meant "the real thing" to refer to the continuity present between a properly offered Novus Ordo (that is, in accordance with the written norms) and the previous iterations of the Roman Missal.<br /><br />The point I was making, albeit poorly, was that seeing the Novus Ordo without the abuses that often creep in might lead one to seek out the celebration of the predecessor Missal. <br />Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53136799255574538692013-05-20T14:18:06.644-04:002013-05-20T14:18:06.644-04:00The Novus Ordo is "the Real Thing." It i...The Novus Ordo is "the Real Thing." It is THE sacrifice of Calvary re-presented in an unbloody manner, as is the EF.<br /><br />All the rest is midrash.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25239651204934660542013-05-20T12:31:34.484-04:002013-05-20T12:31:34.484-04:00rcg, my point was that Novus Ordo rubrics don'...rcg, my point was that Novus Ordo rubrics don't influence the celebration of the Tridentine Mass. Of course, a properly offered Novus Ordo would inspire people to seek out "the real thing" in the Tridentine Mass, which I'm certain the new translation did.<br /><br />Thank you, John Nolan, as always. Can you clarify how it is not liturgical abuse to apply later rubrics to a particular Missal without approval? I don't understand the distinction between irregular and abusive...Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70149085714802281772013-05-20T11:41:11.097-04:002013-05-20T11:41:11.097-04:00Inter Oecumenici (1964) allowed Solemn Mass to be ...Inter Oecumenici (1964) allowed Solemn Mass to be celebrated with only a deacon assisting, and moreover discontinued the practice of the subdeacon holding the paten in a humeral veil from the Offertory to the Pater Noster. In the days of Indult Masses it was probably legitimate to celebrate according to the 1964 or even the 1967 revisions (although few did)but the EF as defined by Summorum Pontificum is the Roman Rite according to the Missal of 1962, with the option of vernacular readings, which could of course be sung.<br /><br />To celebrate according to the 1964 revisions would be irregular, but would not be a liturgical abuse.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71589654258499625302013-05-20T11:20:53.545-04:002013-05-20T11:20:53.545-04:00Marc, not sure what you mean there: I would say th...Marc, not sure what you mean there: I would say the EF really caught fire when the New Translation came out. There certainly is little, if any, attraction the other way.<br /><br />Also, FrAJM, I see only four candles in the masthead photo. Is that your arrangement?rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53842454860978974362013-05-20T09:57:08.314-04:002013-05-20T09:57:08.314-04:00Some see liturgical creativity, others see liturgi...Some see liturgical creativity, others see liturgical abuse. <br /><br />There is no such gravitational pull from the Novus Ordo to the Tridentine Mass. I hope those more knowledgeable about this subject than myself will chime in. Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10444109364043828352013-05-20T09:41:07.364-04:002013-05-20T09:41:07.364-04:00Yep, well-thought out and stated post, Fr.
Get o...Yep, well-thought out and stated post, Fr. <br />Get out of the sacristy, out of our comfy recliners in the TV room, away from Internet addictions and start putting our faith where our "mouth" is! Been telling my spouse that very thing for years, but we remain part of the inactive "silent majority", mores the pity...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57199481222307352322013-05-20T08:37:53.863-04:002013-05-20T08:37:53.863-04:00Liturgical creativity as it concerns the OF's ...Liturgical creativity as it concerns the OF's gravitational pull on the EF. :)Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90242035453073598662013-05-20T07:54:54.367-04:002013-05-20T07:54:54.367-04:00How do you have just a deacon assisting at an EF M...How do you have just a deacon assisting at an EF Mass in your header pic?ytcnoreply@blogger.com