tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4512230579112722953..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: SATAN IS REVVING UP HIS MINIONS TO TOPPLE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS WE KNOW HER; HE IS DOOMED TO FAILURE BUT WILL MAKE CATHOLIC LIFE MISERABLE!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90659778719198371172014-06-21T22:35:10.363-04:002014-06-21T22:35:10.363-04:00Yes, of course, sacramentally, the OF Form of the ...Yes, of course, sacramentally, the OF Form of the Mass is just as much the Mass as the EF Form. No argument there . .<br /><br />Also, in a single-priest parish with multiple weekend celebrations of Mass, the work-load can be a meritorious reason for a pastor to decline to celebrate the EF Mass. I can see that, too. <br /><br />It is, however, hard to understand (in circumstances where the time-constraint thing is not so much an issue) why any Catholic priest would refuse to celebrate the EF primarily on the grounds that he personally does not have a favorable inclination toward that form of Mass. He is, after all, there to serve God by serving his people and this may (and does) involve doing and getting involved in things that he, as an individual, might not be otherwise disposed to do.<br /><br />Now, back to the smaller parishes (like mine) with only one priest:<br /><br />Given the fact that we are minimally obligated to attend Mass only on Sunday (or Saturday vigil), why would it be a problem to make ONE of the non-obligatory weekday Masses an EF low Mass? Maybe even one weekday Mass in the EF once a month? Perhaps, if we're lucky and have a really understanding and generous priest--once a month on an early Sunday afternoon? <br /><br />These are all possibilities, even in smaller parishes. Surely the presence of the EF Mass shouldn't only be in metropolitan parishes!<br /><br />I guess I'm quite stubborn in my belief that small-town or rural life is superior to urban life (cities are nice to visit but, having lived in larger places in my young adult life, I still prefer working in a small town and living in the country). I'm also quite wedded to the belief that small-town folks are as consequential as big-city folks--we all have equal souls before God and equal rights as people.<br /><br />It really "gets my goat" when someone tells me, "location, location, location" in response to one of my stubborn queries as to why we can't still have some of the amenities in our smaller towns that they once commonly enjoyed but which are now limited to more populated areas (for example, I now have to drive an hour to Brunswick every so often to get my shoes half-soled and we used to have three shoe repair shops in Waycross well into my adulthood--passenger rail service is another example). <br /><br />Yes, I do prefer the EF Mass because it is easier for me to connect with the Mystery that is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in that form. Maybe a lot of it has to do with the ethos, if you will--the lack of "modern" casualness and folksiness. It just seems to promote a whole different attitude, generally speaking, which strikes me as more reverent and focused on God (I know the OF can be done this way as well but usually it is not).<br /><br />I love the EF Mass for what it is, historical cultural accretions and all. However, just as dropping a little white paint into a gallon of black paint "tints" it and changes it forevermore, I see the presence (even on a limited part-time basis) of the EF Mass in a parish as an element which will, ultimately, improve the OF liturgical (and, hopefully, spiritual) culture in a parish.<br /><br />Call me a stubborn and hidebound "true believer" on this issue if you must but this form of the Mass matters! Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91666113743926388002014-06-21T21:33:17.761-04:002014-06-21T21:33:17.761-04:00Anonymous, Just keep telling yourself that…LOL!
A...Anonymous, Just keep telling yourself that…LOL!<br /><br />Among the things lacking in the OF Masses I have attended: dignity, reverence, solemnity, attention to detail, proper rubrics, a sense of the Holy, and self-deprecating Priests…for starters.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81168576716928576892014-06-21T19:21:22.816-04:002014-06-21T19:21:22.816-04:00Mr. Johnson - The OF Mass is the Mass. It is not ...Mr. Johnson - The OF Mass is the Mass. It is not less the Mass than the EF - it is simply the same Mass in a different form. The OF Mass lacks absolutely nothing.<br /><br />Those who are not able to worship in the Extraordinary Form have lost nothing that matters and are deprived of nothing that matters, are they?<br /><br />It is the pastor's responsibility to determine if he can accede to the request of some "stable group" for the Holy Sacrifice in the Extraordinary Form. The ordinary pastoral care of the parish is his responsibility. <br /><br />Many priests in the Diocese of Savannah have, I am sure, multiple celebrations of Mass each weekend, not a few in two or even three locations. To add another Mass to an already crowded schedule is really not necessary nor truly for the benefit of those who simply prefer to EF to the OF. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48712155332385241992014-06-21T12:43:58.611-04:002014-06-21T12:43:58.611-04:00Anonymous at 9:51 a.m.,
Thanks for that point abo...Anonymous at 9:51 a.m.,<br /><br />Thanks for that point about about the Latin original.<br /><br />Anonymous at 9:12 (I don't assume you are the same as Anonymous at9:51),<br /><br />"Telling a priest that SP says "is to" accede is not going to help The Cause. It will, I fear have the opposite effect."<br /><br />I know that priests take a vow of obedience to their respective bishops. Are you saying that many priests do not also desire to be obedient to the Supreme Pastor, the Bishop of Rome, as well? <br /><br />Should priests only do what their bishop directs and blow the Pope off unless the local bishop incorporates the Pope's policies or directives as his own local diocesan policies? <br /><br />Willfully refusing to celebrate the EF when requested to do so by a stable group (a refusal based only on an individual priest's attitudes and will alone) shows an attitude of dissent to the Pope Emeritus and actually creates feelings of resentment and estrangement from the stable group parishioners to a pastor. In other words, a simple refusal (without a meritorious explanation for doing so--not a negative attitude by an individual priest towards the EF) can cause more ill feelings and parish disunity than simply acceding and offering the EF Mass on some kind of regular basis in a parish. <br /><br />Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61092619133859913902014-06-21T09:51:30.196-04:002014-06-21T09:51:30.196-04:00The Latin original says "libenter suscipiat&q...The Latin original says "libenter suscipiat" so arguing the correct English verb, "should" or "is to," is meaningless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18103864158233701492014-06-21T09:12:44.633-04:002014-06-21T09:12:44.633-04:00I don't agree that accurate quotations or repr...I don't agree that accurate quotations or representations of church documents amounts to words games. <br /><br />SP did not say a priest "is to" willingly accede. It says he "should."<br /><br />And there is a world of difference. Telling a priest that SP says he "is to" accede is not going to help The Cause. It will, I fear, have the opposite effect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61249416833218882892014-06-20T22:22:23.167-04:002014-06-20T22:22:23.167-04:00Anonymous at 7:24,
You will notice that I did not...Anonymous at 7:24,<br /><br />You will notice that I did not put "is to" in quotes (I did not say "is to willingly accede"). I wrote that I simply recalled the words "willingly accede." You are correct that "should" precedes "willingly accede" in the actual document, though. <br /><br />So pastors who say "no" to these EF Mass requests in the face of no evidence that the offering of the EF Mass in a parish would cause disunity or disharmony are not doing what they "should" be doing! That's too bad for all of us . . .<br /><br />You see, I'm not really very interested in word games, clever arguments or matching wits or intelligence levels. I am, however, keenly interested in seeing the EF Mass become a part of everyday Catholic life, particularly in the Diocese of Savannah, Georgia. I should'nt, as a prerequisite, have to win any online argument with any priest (no matter how intelligent or knowledgeable) or anyone else to see this become a reality . . . Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8631345014328421182014-06-20T19:24:53.626-04:002014-06-20T19:24:53.626-04:00Johnson: "Summorum Pontificum, as I recall, s...Johnson: "Summorum Pontificum, as I recall, states that the pastor is to "willingly accede" to the requests..."<br /><br />Johnson: "IS TO 'WILLINGLY ACCEDE'..."<br /><br />SP: "the parish priest should willingly accede..."<br /><br />SP: "SHOULD WILLINGLY ACCEDE"<br /><br />There's a significant difference between the two.<br /><br />You misquote SP. And that does not help The Cause.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28888775132279648172014-06-20T17:08:44.900-04:002014-06-20T17:08:44.900-04:00Anonymous at 2:47:
Are you "backing me up&q...Anonymous at 2:47:<br /> <br />Are you "backing me up" by quoting Summorum Pontificum or are you suggesting that requests by stable groups for Mass according to the 1962 Missal at certain parishes in the Diocese of Savannah should be refused by pastors because offering such Masses would cause disharmony or disunity?<br /><br />If it would cause such disharmony or disunity what evidence supports taking such a position? Is there disharmony or disunity at St. Joseph in Macon or at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Savannah because the Extraordinary Form of Mass is regularly offered in those parishes? Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77285418919591175412014-06-20T14:47:22.555-04:002014-06-20T14:47:22.555-04:00SP Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the fa...SP Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists, the parish priest should willingly accede to their requests to celebrate Holy Mass according to the rite of the 1962 Roman Missal. He should ensure that the good of these members of the faithful is harmonized with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the governance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50150513956440219812014-06-19T22:57:23.647-04:002014-06-19T22:57:23.647-04:00Summorum Pontificum, as I recall, states that the ...Summorum Pontificum, as I recall, states that the pastor is to "willingly accede" to the requests of a stable group of faithful for the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal.<br /><br />How is telling such a group "no" (whether done in a dismissive manner or not) willingly acceding to their request(s)?Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-544557583050324392014-06-19T15:02:32.900-04:002014-06-19T15:02:32.900-04:00William J - You are welcome to write anything you ...William J - You are welcome to write anything you like, sign it, and send it to the Bishop with a copy to me.<br /><br />Saying, "No," is not, as you seem to suggest, a "dismissive" response.<br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24562332962950630852014-06-19T13:20:15.195-04:002014-06-19T13:20:15.195-04:00Pater, different bishop now, as you well know.
No,...Pater, different bishop now, as you well know.<br />No, I am not writing to the current bishop. What I meant was that I would be happy to supply wtitten testimony to YOU from all those faithful who were gravely offended by your and the then-bishop's dismissive attitude. <br /> <br /> The "trouble-makers" and those hapless faithful who "caused divisions" were involved in a very different issue as you well know--completely different issues. The close timing of the two issues was unfortunate and regrettable; how you can make that accusation in good conscience I cannot conceive. No wonder people on this blog sometimes accuse you of diversionary tactics and obfuscating...William Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4232084415100750832014-06-19T11:37:52.074-04:002014-06-19T11:37:52.074-04:00OK Father Ignotus, you got me there. If you want ...OK Father Ignotus, you got me there. If you want to get that technical, you may be right. Thanks for the correction.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76381522781704753942014-06-19T10:47:54.733-04:002014-06-19T10:47:54.733-04:00William J - Sorry, I was never dismissive, I never...William J - Sorry, I was never dismissive, I never said there was no demand, some few who requested the EF were trouble-makers while most were not, some few caused divisions in the parish while most did not, no one was treated like a second-class Catholic.<br /><br />Write anything you like, sign it, and send it to the Bishop with a copy to me.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63984101656910920122014-06-19T10:13:02.958-04:002014-06-19T10:13:02.958-04:00Robert - You asserted: "Right now, about the...Robert - You asserted: "Right now, about the only Catholics who get rebuked by their bishops are those who petition for the Traditional Latin Mass..."<br /><br />To know this to be factual, you would have to be privy to all of the communications of bishops. Only if you were privy to these communications could you know who is being rebuked and for what.<br /><br />I worked as Bishop Lessard's administrative assistant for four years. I was aware of some of his "difficult" communications with his flock, laity and clergy on a variety of topics.<br /><br />But, as was proper, he maintained confidentiality in such communications as was proper.<br /><br />What you cannot know is that those who request the so-called Mass of the Ages are "about the only Catholics who get rebuked."Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76358503451748752252014-06-19T10:04:56.794-04:002014-06-19T10:04:56.794-04:00Yes, indeed, Pater. Robert's 5-point descript...Yes, indeed, Pater. Robert's 5-point description pretty well mirrors what happened under your watch to the faithful in Augusta, GA coming on three years ago. I would be happy to supply written testimony.William Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39418699543507753912014-06-19T08:45:02.539-04:002014-06-19T08:45:02.539-04:00"As you are not privy to the communications f..."As you are not privy to the communications from, I suspect, a single bishop to his flock, there is no way on earth that such an absurd statement can be made with any degree of credibility."<br /><br />With all due respect Father, I don't think you are aware just WHAT I have been privy to. I spent 7 years writing for three publications in California that covered issues in the diocese of San Diego as well as the Archdioceses of San Francisco and Los Angeles and many of the surrounding dioceses for those areas. I spent an additional four years writing stories for the National Catholic Register. I am not listing this to boost my credentials, because I almost wish I never had those writing jobs, as they challenged my faith in ways I never dreamed of. I have interviewed many different people from many different backgrounds about their experiences with their local bishops and they were only too willing to make me privy to such communications between them an their bishop. Many of these folks were parents and victims who were treated with contempt and dismissiveness when they confronted their bishops about the priests who molested them or their children. I spent three hours face to face with a married couple who finally had to hire a private investigator to convince their bishop to remove the faculties of a priest WHO WAS THEIR OWN COUSIN, because he was giving the scandal of living with his homosexual lover in a public way. Several people from one diocese corroborated about a meeting with their bishop in which he feigned interest in their concerns, contradicted himself and refused to answer their questions. I spoke with an unfortunate man who ended up as one of the "toys" used by Fr. Paul Shanley of Boston and a mother and daughter who were friends with him and were shocked later to find out just who he really was. An yes, Father, I have spoken to a number of people, some of them good friends, who have shared their communications with their bishop about their desire for the Mass of the Ages. If you think my claim that they are rebuked is "absurd", I'll take it down a notch. Maybe "rebuked" might be too strong, so I'll just say that many people who ask their bishop for this Mass are:<br /><br />1) Denied in a dismissive manner<br /><br />2) Told that there is no demand <br />(which is almost always a lie)<br /><br />3) Labeled as "troublemakers"<br /><br />4) Accused of causing division in their parish or in the Church<br /><br />5) Treated like second-class Catholics<br /><br />Yes, maybe "rebuke" is a bit too strong of a word. But faithful Catholics certainly deserve to be treated better than this by their bishops, especially when we see photos in the media of bishops shaking hands with, hugging and laughing out loud with pro-abort politicians.<br /><br />Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13653426849466691852014-06-19T03:40:11.488-04:002014-06-19T03:40:11.488-04:00Things are no better this side of the pond. In Mar...Things are no better this side of the pond. In March the Bishop of Portsmouth, Philip Egan, said that Catholic politicians who voted for policies that are in contradiction to Catholic moral teaching should be denied Communion as an 'act of mercy'. This prompted Conor Burns, an openly gay Catholic MP who chairs the Parliamentary all-party committee on relations with the Holy See, and who voted in favour of same-sex marriage, to say that he felt 'less welcome' in his home diocese, and would take up the matter with Cardinal Nichols.<br /><br />The result was a letter sent to all Catholic MPs and peers stating that the Church had no intention of denying Communion to anyone in such circumstances. The letter was signed by Greg Pope, a senior apparatchik for the Bishops' Conference, and a former Labour MP who consistently voted in favour of abortion and adoption by homosexual couples. He is the Conference's liaison officer with Parliament and deputy chief of the Catholic Education Service (CESEW) which has done a lot over the years to destroy Catholic education, and is a good example of a centralized agency usurping responsibilities which properly belong to the diocesan bishop.<br /><br />Despite a few recent orthodox appointments, the Conference is still dominated by liberals. Benedict XVI had the measure of them, but they see the Francis papacy as an opportunity to reassert themselves. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27573971774124574022014-06-18T18:07:00.158-04:002014-06-18T18:07:00.158-04:00For centuries upon centuries the Roman Canon was l...For centuries upon centuries the Roman Canon was looked upon as the great bulwark against satan and his demons. How many times is satan mentioned in the Vatican II document on the liturgy, nay any Vatican II document? How often is the Roman Canon used anymore?Vic Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35841408187368339162014-06-18T16:39:25.807-04:002014-06-18T16:39:25.807-04:00Robert Kumpel has it exactly rightRobert Kumpel has it exactly rightПравославный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65584575771194458472014-06-18T14:42:38.969-04:002014-06-18T14:42:38.969-04:00Calling the event “venom masquerading as virtue,”
...<i>Calling the event “venom masquerading as virtue,”</i><br /><br />But the same applies to <i>you</i>, Madam. Anything that claims to be love but divorces itself from the Truth of What Is is indeed venom masquerading as virtue.<br /><br /><i>For four decades, we have had prominent "Catholic" politicians push the envelope little-by-little, checking as they go along to see how much their bishops would let them get away with in betraying their faith. By now, they know quite clearly THAT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING.</i><br /><br />Really? Jesus said something about millstones (a warning and challenge that applies to us, also).<br /><br /><i>AND SHE IS GOING TO GET AWAY WITH THIS WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A SLAP ON THE WRIST.</i><br /><br />And she will wither on the vine, with a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth, if she doesn't cease and repent.<br /><br /><i>We are all like the frogs put in the pot of cold water and some of us are finally starting to realize that it is now boiling.</i><br /><br />Better that we realize that the pot is boiling at all and jump out. We could not just as soon not, and one of the ways in which the lukewarm stop being lukewarm, after all, is when the heat gets turned up.<br /><br /><i> A woman who places political expediency ahead of faithfulness can publicly rebuke her bishop and then proclaim her "ardent" Catholic faith on the news talk shows.</i><br /><br />This is good ol' "common sense" up to its tricks again-- tricks that are at least 200-300 years old, and stem in good part from a political culture formed immediately post-1688. I would also refer you to the Bangorian controversy of 1730 (and also Sophia Rosenfeld's book on the history of the notion of "common sense") ...except that moral relativism undermines any "common sense," no matter how loudly and how widely one may proclaim one's self its true advocate, as Ms. Pelosi is doing. She's not doing anything new. If something is self-contradictory and self-refuting, why should anyone hold it in common, and why should anyone not expect it to fall down? Wouldn't one lose the very things that one purports to stand for? Appeals to "common sense," explicit or implicit, also tend to arise at times of crisis (if something is "self-evident," after all, why refer to it to the obvious?). Catholics would do well to read those signs of the times.<br /><br />Part of the problem isn't just our own complacency, but also because there's something about how we understand evangelization that we often don't put our finger on: when we speak of Christ, the elephant in the room is often the Incarnation. We can only show Christ to others to the best of our human abilities, whereby He takes it from there, and we are to get out of His way. We don't convert them any more than we could convert ourselves. We do not presume to "win souls for Christ," as if other people are notches we put on our belts. We can identify brashness when we see it, and how much of a turn-off it can be, but we can often mistake timidity for prudence.WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31076323175619113012014-06-18T13:04:24.969-04:002014-06-18T13:04:24.969-04:00Isn't it time to stop calling liberal and mode...Isn't it time to stop calling liberal and moderate Catholics "anti-Catholic"? Were conservatives who railed against Vatican II and attack American bishops also anti-Catholic? The church has factions, like any large group, and conservatives shouldn't pretend to own it. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-89290476277076645012014-06-18T12:52:58.337-04:002014-06-18T12:52:58.337-04:00"Right now, about the only Catholics who get ..."Right now, about the only Catholics who get rebuked by their bishops are those who petition for the Traditional Latin Mass" is a statement, the veracity of which, you have no way of knowing.<br /><br />As you are not privy to the communications from, I suspect, a single bishop to his flock, there is no way on earth that such an absurd statement can be made with any degree of credibility.<br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51810970813123225792014-06-18T11:43:18.788-04:002014-06-18T11:43:18.788-04:00I want to be careful here. I do not mean to demon...I want to be careful here. I do not mean to demonize bishops and priests and I do not think that excommunication is the end-all solution for the scandals of publicly unfaithful Catholics. I just wish we would see a LITTLE action of some kind. ANYTHING! I am a huge fan of Archbishop Cordileone, but maybe he should have publicly invited Pelosi to go to Confession? We have "Catholic" senators and congressmen who vote and campaign so utterly far from the mind of the Church and their pastors and bishops do NOTHING. A public rebuke or public teaching moment--which I commend Archbishop Cordileone for exercising--would send a message not just to the politicians, but to the people in the pews who think everything is just fine and dandy. Right now, about the only Catholics who get rebuked by their bishops are those who petition for the Traditional Latin Mass--which they shouldn't have to beg for in the first place. This won't last forever, but it certainly tries one's patience to live in these times.Robert Kumpelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10567786012498143419noreply@blogger.com