tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post4121943761421864427..comments2024-03-28T16:23:19.433-04:00Comments on southern orders: BOMBSHELL! FAKE NEWS??????Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60367434259665137472017-05-10T09:30:21.376-04:002017-05-10T09:30:21.376-04:00The argument about Anglican orders is silly, and t...The argument about Anglican orders is silly, and the idea that this is even a slightly open question is incredibly disingenuous. As I said before, people like this cardinal who promote the questioning of definitively closed questions are undermining the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. If the Church cannot teach definitively, which this sort of questioning assumes, then (1) every proposed teaching throughout the Church's history is subject to doubt, and (2) such an institution who cannot teach definitively cannot claim to be the Church founded by Christ, Who is the Truth Incarnate. <br /><br />From the <i>Professio Fidei</i> of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:<br /><br />"With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: . . . the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter <i>Apostolicae Curae</i> on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations."Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76759002085921765122017-05-10T08:42:38.911-04:002017-05-10T08:42:38.911-04:00Bishop timothy Ware (of the Orthodox Church), who ...Bishop timothy Ware (of the Orthodox Church), who wrote a book on Orthodoxy back in the 1980s, noted in that publication the ecumenical difficulties in dealing with Anglicanism, namely, the comprehensiveness of it, the extreme ambiguities of Anglican formularies and the wide interpretations accordingly permitted. In Anglicanism's U.S. branch, the Episcopal Church, you can go to some parishes which only believe there are two sacraments and others that observer the traditional seven. Some parishes have communion at all their Sunday services and others alternate with Morning Prayer (e.g., Communion on the 1st, 3rd and 5th Sundays, Morning Prayer 2nd and 4th Sundays). You can tell something of how "catholic" an Episcopal cleric is by what they wear for the Eucharist---Atlanta's current Episcopal bishop dresses like a "Low Churchmen" for the Eucharist (even at the Easter Vigil), wearing basically choir vestments and an ugly stole, foregoing the alb and chasuble, of course the traditional dress for Mass. And as has been pointed out, the ordination of women priests only complicates matters. The late Pope John Paul 2 noted in the 1990s that the further a denomination gets away from the Eucharist as their main focus of worship, the more likely it is to ordain women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68098404823015147282017-05-10T07:10:31.343-04:002017-05-10T07:10:31.343-04:00The Church does not need to be considering any kin...The Church does not need to be considering any kind of rapproachment with any denomination until she gets her own house straight...and that is a long way off. Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32542743832245020452017-05-09T20:56:21.319-04:002017-05-09T20:56:21.319-04:00Loose lips, sink ships....that's about all I c...Loose lips, sink ships....that's about all I can say on this.....Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60505828688594229582017-05-09T20:36:49.228-04:002017-05-09T20:36:49.228-04:00Fr McDonald,
Generally,the Extraordinary Magist...Fr McDonald, <br /><br />Generally,the Extraordinary Magisterium refers to either the Pope alone or in Council with Bishops, defining dogma. <br /><br />The Ordinary Magisterium can be either the Pope or a Council not defining dogma. <br /><br />The Ordinary Universal Magisterium is considered infallible when it speaks definitely. According to Vat I this authority extends only to Primary Objects (credenda). Lumen Gentium, however, extended that authority to secondary objects (tenenda)--the basis for the Infallibility of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.Dr Robert Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78136831246153502912017-05-09T20:19:44.060-04:002017-05-09T20:19:44.060-04:00Fr Kavanaugh,
1. You say that absolutely doesn...Fr Kavanaugh, <br /><br />1. You say that absolutely doesn't necessarily mean what it says, referring to Apostolicae Curae. Then you cite an example a papal text as not being absolute, even though it doesn't use the word. <br /><br />Thus, you have proven nothing. <br /><br />Further, anyone who has taken the time to study or merely read AC knows that it was the consequence of the Anglicans asking Rome to re-examine the question that had already been settled by Paul VI <i>Praeclara Charissimi</i>, triggered by the appearance of the Edwardine Ordinal. <br /><br />Why did the Anglicans, who knew for over 300 years that Rome considered their Orders invalid (and were fine with it) then decide under Leo XIII that they wanted the matter re-examined? The occasion, which caused the Anglicans to get religion, was the plan to re-establish the Catholic Hierarchy in England. <br /><br />I am, BTW, an ex Episcopalian. <br /><br />2. Cardinal Coccopalmiero has shown on multiple occasions that he knows as much about theology as a pig knows about Sunday.Dr Robert Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45098742879196368932017-05-09T13:11:29.345-04:002017-05-09T13:11:29.345-04:00Father, your link does not attempt to prove that S...Father, your link does not attempt to prove that St. Sylvester was present at Nicaea. I think it is agreed that the popes were not present for any of the first Seven Ecumenical Councils, actually. There were papal legates present at most of the councils -- although, there were no papal representatives and no pope present at the First Council of Constantinople.<br /><br />Michael, I'm not assuming that all declarations of belief and practice are of equal value and weight. I agree that they're not. It is true that words used in different contexts can have either different or the same meanings. As for your Jesuit suppression comment, I think you'd agree that suppressing the Jesuits is not a question of faith or morals and so would never approach being magisterial. You'd probably say the same about Quo Primum as well, arguing that it is administrative-practical and not doctrinal.<br /><br />The validity or invalidity of the Sacrament of Orders and its associated sacraments, though, bears directly on faith. So statements bearing on that question are of a different character than suppressing Jesuits. It is difficult to imagine a question bearing more on faith and salvation than the question of sacramental validity. <br /><br />My point remains: if Leo XIII can be incorrect about who is or is not a validly ordained bishop and priest, then every papal determination about the sacraments is subject to dispute depending on further investigation. If papal statements about the sacraments are subject to dispute, then all papal statements and every other doctrinal statement is similarly subject to dispute.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43937860752796703112017-05-09T13:01:55.527-04:002017-05-09T13:01:55.527-04:00I must correct myself. I was thinking of the pries...I must correct myself. I was thinking of the priest who ghost-wrote Laudato Si. However, this cardinal is ignoring the valid criticisms of Amoris Laetitia (of which the doctrinal confusion he denies are now exemplified by the Maltese Bishops and more to come.) see here: https://cruxnow.com/interviews/2017/02/21/coccopalmerio-says-theres-no-doctrinal-confusion-amoris/. This is why I do not trust what he says.Servimus Unum Deumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12521042317656015840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27035406388344651852017-05-09T12:54:18.622-04:002017-05-09T12:54:18.622-04:00I can't take this cleric seriously. Isn't ...I can't take this cleric seriously. Isn't this the one who wrote that book on "healing" about how to kiss with your mouth?Servimus Unum Deumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12521042317656015840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81474103373436135992017-05-09T12:32:56.820-04:002017-05-09T12:32:56.820-04:00Marc says, "One of the problems with "fu...Marc says, "One of the problems with "further investigation" into the apparently hidden meaning of papal and other doctrinal documents is that questioning one means that all are subject to questioning."<br /><br />No, it does not mean that all are subject to questioning.<br /><br />Your error is in assuming that all declarations of belief and practice are of equal weight and value. They are not. <br /><br />Words used in one document may not have the same meaning when used in a document of a different legislative/doctrinal authority. See my comments on the document suppressing the Jesuits and Quo Primum.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10169281290140871382017-05-09T12:26:29.457-04:002017-05-09T12:26:29.457-04:00Marc your sources about the pope and Nicea are wro...Marc your sources about the pope and Nicea are wrong. This is the Church's history:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/01/pope-silvester-council-nicaea-vs-james-white.html<br /><br />Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13665756487903713142017-05-09T12:18:05.871-04:002017-05-09T12:18:05.871-04:00Father, that is a good summary of papal infallibil...Father, that is a good summary of papal infallibility. But there is a debate about the number of times it has been invoked. Some, like you, say twice. Others say three times. Still others take a much broader view and claim it has been invoked rather often. <br /><br />The point here is that when a pope says, "Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the pontiffs, our predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by our authority, of our own initiative and certain knowledge, we pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void." <br /><br />At the very least, this is the pope recognizing and restating the ordinary and universal magisterium's teaching, which is infallible since this is a teaching on faith. If the pope can misstate the ordinary and universal magisterium on faith and morals, as a revisiting of this doctrine suggests, then not only is papal infallibility undermined, the teaching authority of the Church as a whole is undermined.<br /><br />The pope was not "present" at the Council of Nicaea. But your statement about councils bolsters my point: as the Vatican Councils teach, when the Church teaches, it is the presence of the pope that is the guarantor of the truth of the teaching. If popes can teach incorrectly in areas that are presumptively infallible -- by virtue of belonging to either the ordinary or extraordinary magisterium -- then the teaching authority of the Church is eviscerated.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74050108977920907502017-05-09T11:47:46.269-04:002017-05-09T11:47:46.269-04:00Marc, the dogma of Papal Infallibility is two-fold...Marc, the dogma of Papal Infallibility is two-fold having to do with the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church (the pope and bishops acting in concert in an ecumenical council to define a doctrine as dogma or to make dogmatic statements, such as is the case with the development of the Nicene Creed as a result of the Council of Nicea. This would be considered infallible, but the presence of the pope is required. <br /><br />The other is the Extraordinary Magisterium, when the pope along, elevates to a dogma that which is a theology only. Vatican I expounded on this aspect but it is in reference to an infallible decree elevating the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to a dogma required to be believed by Catholics. This was done in 1854 prior to Vatican I and may have necessitated Vatican I to deal with the controversy surrounding this papal decree presented as infallible. So papal infallibility was elevated the doctrine of papal infallibility to dogma by Vatican I whereas prior it was a doctrine only. However, Vatican I is an Ordinary Magisterium elevation of a doctrine to a dogma.<br /><br />The only other doctrine elevated to a dogma by a pope in the extraordinary magisterium is the Dogma of the Assumption of the BVM in 1950.<br /><br />One can make a case that the elevation of deceased Faithful Departed to the status of a saint is a work of the extraordinary Magistarium too and infallible. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4896961785502279152017-05-09T11:05:38.536-04:002017-05-09T11:05:38.536-04:00One of the problems with "further investigati...One of the problems with "further investigation" into the apparently hidden meaning of papal and other doctrinal documents is that questioning one means that all are subject to questioning. <br /><br />If Leo XIII was wrong to declare Anglican orders invalid, what have all the other popes been wrong about? And what makes us so sure that the current pope is "more right" than all the others who came before him?<br /><br />The end result is the complete destabilization of doctrine -- and not just the particular teaching in question about Anglican orders, but every teaching throughout history.<br /><br />With regard to the particular issue of Anglican orders, it is difficult to imagine how papal infallibility as defined at Vatican I would survive in any meaningful sense if Leo XIII's pronouncement is undone. Papal infallibility is so much air if it is not invoked by the precise language used in <i>Apostolicae Curae</i>. The questioning here brings to mind the Orthodox argument against papal infallibility: The problem with the doctrine is that there is no infallible list of infallible papal pronouncements. Indeed.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34816629153006862252017-05-09T10:53:29.533-04:002017-05-09T10:53:29.533-04:00I do think the ordination of women in all forms of...I do think the ordination of women in all forms of Holy Orders is problematic. I fear under the current way things are done at the Vatican now under stealth and accusing so many who in good faith want the law to be observed but now are being ridiculed (which is what i was taught in the 1970's concerning law and how the pope uses the same 1970's apologetic or Scriptural basis for his on-going ridiculing of the law--or worse rediculing those who follow the letter of the law) is a way to put forward a heterodox ideology as a pretext for inclusivity and reuniting the Church. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71427806853366818932017-05-09T10:48:33.987-04:002017-05-09T10:48:33.987-04:00I think some high Anglicans, such as the former An...I think some high Anglicans, such as the former Anglican/Episcopal priest become a lay Catholic, Fletcher Bingham believed his Anglican Orders were valid because in high Anglicanism, some who are to be bishops search for a bishop who has Eastern Orthodoxy orders which are valid. Not sure how that works, but it is the case for some Anglican priests thus validating their Holy Orders. <br /><br />I do think there is a case for saying that grace is given in Anglican and Protestant Communion Services despite the fact there is no validly ordained priests. I don't know to what extent the "Church Supplies" what is lacking would apply here, but we can't box God in terms of saying that He isn't present in some way even if minimally or non sacramentally. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60235142276104330052017-05-09T10:27:28.892-04:002017-05-09T10:27:28.892-04:00The question arose at the recent National Workshop...The question arose at the recent National Workshop on Christian Unity held this year in Minneapolis. It came up in a brief discussion among the Catholic Diocesan Ecumenical officers about the canonization of converts to Catholicism as a help/hindrance to ecumenical dialogue.<br /><br />"Absolute" statements are, at times, not as final as they may appear. Recall the words of Pope Clement XIV in Dominus ac Redemptor Noster in the suppression of the Jesuits: "Having further considered that the said Company of Jesus can no longer produce those abundant fruits...in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fullness of our apostolical power, suppress and abolish the said company: we deprive it of all activity whatever... And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed."<br /><br />But "forever extinguished and suppressed" wasn't forever. The balance seems to be in the in the nature of a papal text. Is it legislative? Is it doctrinal? Is it infallible or intended to be infallible? (This is in the same area as the assertion of Quo Primum that the rite used at that time was to be used "in perpertuity, that it could never be revoked or modified."<br /><br />I'm sure much has been written on the nature of Leo XIII's "absolutely null and utterly void." Further investigation seems warranted. <br /><br />Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.com