tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post3152207792597653317..comments2024-03-28T12:59:52.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: IS THE UNITED STATES THE REASON THE WORLD IS AT THE BRINK OF A WORLD WAR AND CHRISTIANS ARE DESCIMATED IN IRAQ AND OTHER PLACES? IS THE UNITED STATES THE CULPRIT?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66882839677927972682014-09-02T21:39:45.463-04:002014-09-02T21:39:45.463-04:00Yes, Anon 2 , I agree... We must all make it our b...Yes, Anon 2 , I agree... We must all make it our business to learn as much as we can...Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19233380886456835512014-09-02T20:31:34.075-04:002014-09-02T20:31:34.075-04:00Anon Friend:
I would not expect someone who had n...Anon Friend:<br /><br />I would not expect someone who had not attended law school for three years in the U.S. to set themselves up as an expert in any area of American law. Quite frankly, the Shari‘a is just as complex. Reading the Qur’an (in translation mind you) without reading other primary texts and the commentaries of the various schools on them is a bit non-lawyers reading a statute and thinking they now know the law on that subject. Or take another example – anyone can read and understand the Bible, right? No need for biblical scholars, no need for the magisterium, etc. You get the idea.<br /><br />I have read the infidel passages too. I have also read various commentaries on them (admittedly in English).<br /><br />Are there Muslim fundamentalists who just read the passages in the Qur’an and take them literally with no regard for context? Of course there are, just as there are Christian fundamentalists who do the same thing with the Bible. But they hardly represent all Christians, and they certainly do not represent Catholics. Similarly the fundamentalists hardly represent all Muslims.<br /><br />The quoted passage in the linked article about wife beating is a good example of the problem. The passage requires careful exegesis regarding the different stages of response by a husband. Moreover, the translation of the last resort stage as “beat them” may even be unfaithful to the original Arabic, especially when interpreted together with the Sunnah of the Prophet (which has ambiguities of its own in this respect). But you wouldn’t know any of this from just reading the passage in translation or from reading many Western commentators who have suddenly become experts on the Shar‘ia without ever studying it.<br /><br />Similarly, the author mentions polygamy. But once again the relevant passages in the Qur’an require careful exegesis. They permit a man to have more than one wife, “provided he can treat them all equally [or equitably].” As you can well imagine, this condition is not easy to satisfy. Most Muslim marriages are not polygamous (about 4% world-wide and then usually driven more by cultural norms). Tunisia interpreted the condition as being impossible of performance and on that basis banned polygamy several decades ago.<br /><br />So, things just are not a simple as they appear. Of course, as you can tell from his responses, someone like Gene cannot handle complexity but I am pretty sure you can.<br /><br />Am I an expert myself? Certainly not! But I do have an advantage over many people – I know there is a great deal I do not know. And so I make it my business to learn as much as I can.<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36070402059913700112014-09-02T17:11:31.577-04:002014-09-02T17:11:31.577-04:00Pin/Gene - No one, except you, said anything about...Pin/Gene - No one, except you, said anything about peace at any price.<br /><br />Your assertion that we should bomb innocent civilians in Mecca, Medina, etc, is the issue.<br /><br />You can feint and feign all you want, but you are the one making statements that are directly repugnant to Catholic morality.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-55925875197125260902014-09-02T16:30:50.535-04:002014-09-02T16:30:50.535-04:00@Pater
Well, ah, you're welcome...@Pater<br />Well, ah, you're welcome...Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1780956312598930712014-09-02T13:38:42.545-04:002014-09-02T13:38:42.545-04:00I see where those peace loving Muslims have releas...I see where those peace loving Muslims have released another video of a journalist being beheaded. I also read where they are threatening to kidnap and behead a US citizen in Fla. Yessir, Anon 2 and Ignotus…peace at any price. Right?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81718986779549001282014-09-02T12:47:51.672-04:002014-09-02T12:47:51.672-04:00Anon Amigo - Yes, I recall now.Anon Amigo - Yes, I recall now.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21826451810053461662014-09-02T10:21:31.094-04:002014-09-02T10:21:31.094-04:00Pin/Gene - No, I have not got the Church's tea...Pin/Gene - No, I have not got the Church's teaching wrong. Your belief that killing innocents by bombing major metropolitan areas simply because they are populated by Muslims is what is all wrong.<br /><br />You try to slink away from this with your "...never mind." but it doesn't work.<br /><br />And everyone here reading your comments knows it.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8470244063731167962014-09-02T10:17:26.718-04:002014-09-02T10:17:26.718-04:00No Pater, it was a Saturday seminar at Aquinas Hig...No Pater, it was a Saturday seminar at Aquinas High School. The speaker was a friend-colleague of Dr. James Cutsinger, Professor of Religious Studies at USC, who sponsored the event. Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16437147968843392632014-09-02T08:32:08.665-04:002014-09-02T08:32:08.665-04:00Anon Amigo - Was that the panel discussion held at...Anon Amigo - Was that the panel discussion held at 1st Baptist?Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83530423320386346352014-09-02T06:34:19.178-04:002014-09-02T06:34:19.178-04:00Once again, Ignotus, you got it all wrong…but, nev...Once again, Ignotus, you got it all wrong…but, never mind.<br /><br />If you guys can't get to sleep tonight, I suggest you read Anon 2's posts. That'll do the trick.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30601525819913164162014-09-01T22:54:27.434-04:002014-09-01T22:54:27.434-04:00Anon 2, thanks for reading that link (I really did...Anon 2, thanks for reading that link (I really didn't think any of you would). As you say, how ironic; or is it that he sees these deep problems from a broader Catholic perspective rather than the narrow one we often experience influenced by geopolitics. If you read his daily blog over time, you will see how balanced the priest-author is and how he views issues through a different lense than the simplistic right/left thinking so often employed in our discussions.<br />I actually attended a seminar in Augusta (also attended by your good Pater Kavanaugh), taught by a very knowledgeable Muslim scholar who explored the Muslim religion and touched briefly on the differences between the two major sect traditions (Shia/Sunni). He was very genuine and persuasive about the peaceful underpinnings of the people of "The Book" (Qu'ran). But he did generalize quite a bit, and I found myself forced to explore the Qu'ran more. When you read passages regarding treatment of "infidels", you get a much truer picture. Muslims do not operate from the same underpinnings as Christians AT ALL. And Sharia law is, of course, based on a whole different view of life--we cannot kid ourselves about that.<br /><br />But even if those differences did not exist and the starting points were the same, as you pointed out, Christians (even Catholics) cannot always be trusted to hold to the higher ground of their good faith tenets. Even men of good will and proper Christian catechesis can commit horrible wrong-doing. But if men come from very a different perspective regarding the worth and dignity of every human person, atrocities are inevitable. Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7439767814449384942014-09-01T17:54:16.154-04:002014-09-01T17:54:16.154-04:00Anon Friend:
I read the article and did some addi...Anon Friend:<br /><br />I read the article and did some additional research. Thank you for sharing it. I did not know about this scandal. Yes, I agree, the Left (in this case the Labor Party-controlled Council) often feels disabled by “guilt” or “projected guilt” over racism. I am familiar with the problems of the British Left, and the American Left, in this respect. It is sad when manipulated emotions get in the way of clear thinking.<br /><br />This said, the author of the Patheos article then leaps to all kinds of conclusions about the Islamic faith on the grounds that he “suspects” the crimes had something to do with the Islamic religion. The article is hopelessly incomplete – so much so that I do not know where to begin. And I wonder whether the author is also trying to manipulate emotions, in this case about Islam. Please talk to some Muslims and see what they say about this and whether they think such appalling behavior is sanctioned by Islam. Yes, of course, people can always point to some religious text justifying their behavior. And yes, some Muslims do this too. But I wonder how many so-called Christians in the U.S. justify mistreating their wives and children by invoking the Bible. Try an internet search for “Bible and Wife Beating” and “Bible and Mistreating Children” as I have just done and you will get the idea. Let’s just not pretend it doesn’t happen here. We all know it does.<br /><br />I write not as someone of the Left (or the Right for that matter). I write as a Catholic who does not believe spreading misconceptions or half-truths about Islam is particularly helpful, especially in the current climate (this comment is not directed at you but at the author of the piece). It would behoove people to LEARN something about Islam before they go off all half-cocked about it. And yet this same author writes another piece warning conservative Christians not to be seduced by reactionary politicians who might capitalize on the very fears the author is unwittingly feeding in the first piece. How ironic!:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/08/prepare-for-the-rise-of-the-right.html<br /><br />For added perspective check out the name Enoch Powell (former British politician) some time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74226283977470157102014-09-01T17:12:40.087-04:002014-09-01T17:12:40.087-04:00Pin/Gene - Once again, your views are contrary to ...Pin/Gene - Once again, your views are contrary to those of the Church. And once again, I am happy to be standing with the Church, not you.<br /><br />The Church's teaching is clear: The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians.<br /><br />Further: The Church cautions combatants that not everything is licit in war. Actions which are forbidden, and which constitute morally unlawful orders that may not be followed, include:<br />- attacks against, and mistreatment of, non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners;<br />- genocide, whether of a people, nation or ethnic minorities; <br />- indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants.<br /><br />Your hatred is self-destructive, that's clear. It's also, as George Bernard Shaw wrote, a cowardly act, your revenge for being intimidated.<br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76445825140700676022014-09-01T12:02:42.653-04:002014-09-01T12:02:42.653-04:00Anon 2, there is a difference in how one proceeds ...Anon 2, there is a difference in how one proceeds against terrorists in pone's own country…long term policy should have prevented such a thing from happening, however, once thew problem arises, you have to exterminate them little by little. In the case of a foreign source of vermin, it is preferable to destroy them in their home territory.<br /><br />Ignotus, BS.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77763418354895850652014-09-01T10:34:35.604-04:002014-09-01T10:34:35.604-04:00Very important read:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/...Very important read:<br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/09/why-the-left-cannot-cope-with-islam.htmlAnon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64973797351511273732014-09-01T08:40:06.136-04:002014-09-01T08:40:06.136-04:00Pin/Gene - If you "do not give a damn about t...Pin/Gene - If you "do not give a damn about their (Muslim) innocents" then you are the equivalent, morally, of those who target innocents.<br /><br />This is one of the great, great dangers of giving in to violence, whether in thought or words or actions. Eventually, the power of evil is allowed to overcome the power of grace. <br /><br />At that point, the seduction carried out by the Evil One is complete; his task is done.<br /><br />The result is death, both physical and spiritual.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-3791695646989714602014-08-31T23:14:36.579-04:002014-08-31T23:14:36.579-04:00Gene:
So, when I was living in Britain in the 196...Gene:<br /><br />So, when I was living in Britain in the 1960s and 70s and members of the Provisional IRA were committing their terrorist atrocities (car bombs, pub bombs, shopping center bombs, etc.) against innocent British citizens, we should have carpet bombed Dublin and deported every Irish national living in Britain. <br /><br />Oh, wait a minute . . . I forgot, they were Catholic and back then, like most Brits, I was still a heretic. . . Never mind. <br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64398604512264892762014-08-31T21:50:39.600-04:002014-08-31T21:50:39.600-04:00PS We would not deliberately kill innocents…but, i...PS We would not deliberately kill innocents…but, if they are standing where we want to shoot or drop a bomb, it can't be helped. Allah will save them.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72267569585808297972014-08-31T21:48:37.362-04:002014-08-31T21:48:37.362-04:00I am serious, Anon 2. Oh, Ignotus, it is not immor...I am serious, Anon 2. Oh, Ignotus, it is not immoral to kill enemies in a war and, like it or not, we are in a war with Islam. They do not give a damn about our innocents, and I do not give a damn about their's, if there are any. They are enemies of the Church and the nation., and they would cut off your priestly head quicker than you could say, "I feel so guilty." When enough people in the right places realize this, we may begin to deal with them as we should.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-83886647550289477982014-08-31T20:50:30.262-04:002014-08-31T20:50:30.262-04:00George:
“This is not to deny that there are those...George:<br /><br />“This is not to deny that there are those who vote for this kind of candidate but who don't promote that philosophy either explicitly or implicitly.”<br /><br />I am gratified that you acknowledge this.<br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41999082669269635742014-08-31T20:40:08.752-04:002014-08-31T20:40:08.752-04:00Gene:
Are you serious or are you just emoting?
I...Gene:<br /><br />Are you serious or are you just emoting?<br /><br />If you are serious, are we to conclude that you would protect the developing human being in the womb (I assume you are opposed to abortion) but once born all bets are off? Or is there protection in your universe for some born human beings who fit a certain profile? If so, what is that profile?Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20768268498961718512014-08-31T18:09:39.287-04:002014-08-31T18:09:39.287-04:00Wholesale slaughter of non-combatants is a mortal ...Wholesale slaughter of non-combatants is a mortal sin and completely opposed to the De Fide teaching of the Church.<br /><br />The idea that bombing Mecca and Medina and other centers of Muslim population is going to rid to rid the world of Muslims is absurd.<br /><br />We all believe in consequences, but we also believe in being guided by the moral teaching of the Church. Slaughtering rioters in Ferguson or innocent residents of Muslim majority cities is about as immoral as it gets.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84997212412149243572014-08-31T17:10:03.678-04:002014-08-31T17:10:03.678-04:00Anon 2, First of all, I never thought Bush dealt p...Anon 2, First of all, I never thought Bush dealt properly with Iraq and the post-911 debacle. The day after Bush found out that the terrorists were Islamic, he should have carpet bombed Mecca and Medina, Baghdad, and every major Islamic city in the Middle East, began a wholesale deportation of Muslims in the US, forbade them from immigrating, and declared them undesirables. That would have been for starters. Going after Hussein meant absolutely nothing.<br />Were Christians better off under Hussein…yes, with the caveat that they, as all other citizens, were subject to the whims of his henchmen and the whole fickle tyranny. Curtis Lemay: "If you kill enough of them, they will stop fighting." This also applies to the looters in Ferguson, "If you kill enough of them, they will stop rioting." We have no stomach for law and order anymore…no resolve, no guts. It is true of the Church, as well, nobody from the Pope down has the guts to excommunicate, ban, or discipline apostate Catholics in high places or Priests in low places. We do not believe in consequences anymore…theologically, we do not believe in judgement anymore. We are lost in a wilderness of narcissism, self-indulgence, and guilt. The correction, if it ever comes, will be costly, violent, and protracted. But, it needs to happen.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15575051873407337612014-08-31T15:32:56.841-04:002014-08-31T15:32:56.841-04:00No, Gene, we are not arguing that. We are arguing ...No, Gene, we are not arguing that. We are arguing that we should be thinking critically as Catholics not emotively as Republicans or Democrats. <br /><br />So, do you now admit that the Christians in Iraq were imperiled by George Bush’s invasion of Iraq and that Christians were far better off under Saddam Hussein that under “regime change.” <br /><br />And are you now prepared to view critically all those gung ho neocon types who would do it all again and then some if they could in order to “show that America is strong” or “project American power”? And can you explain why we should even give them the time of day?<br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22767991690450852582014-08-31T11:14:36.241-04:002014-08-31T11:14:36.241-04:00I wouldn't characterize my position as giving ...I wouldn't characterize my position as giving a "litmus test". I could accept a "don't ask, don't tell policy". What I was referring to are those who would openly state: "yes I voted for Mr. Obama and I would do so again" and would bring that philosophy into a Catholic classroom. When people who subscribe to the President's philosophy are voted into office, there are consequences. We see what these consequences are in our own country and in the rest of the world. Thank God that there are enough faithful commited and prayerful Catholics at the present moment in this world that we are spared (for right now) greater tribulations than what we are now facing. There are consequences when that kind of secular philosophy is brought into the classroom. This is not to deny that there are those who vote for this kind of candidate but who don't promote that philosophy either explicitly or implicitly. If they teach and don't depart from Catholic teaching I see no problem. This is why teachers in Catholic schools should be required to uphold Catholic teaching (even by example - as we saw in the episode with Mr. Dollar). It does happen however that some do promote ideologies and philosophies contrary to Church teaching and this is why you see in some cases and in some places Catholic parents home-schooling rather than sending their children to the local parochial school. <br /><br /> Georgenoreply@blogger.com