tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2757680572000923844..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: WHEN PRIDE, DISTRACTIONS AND RIGIDITY GET INTO THE WAY OF GOD'S GRACEFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65207176450917420802014-07-14T18:27:54.991-04:002014-07-14T18:27:54.991-04:00"I used to care, but things have changed..&qu..."I used to care, but things have changed.." <br />Look it up.<br />I'm done. John Nolan got it right.<br /> May God have mercy on us all..Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2662943698076870102014-07-14T01:27:06.508-04:002014-07-14T01:27:06.508-04:00George, any Byzantine Catholic Church is in commun...George, any Byzantine Catholic Church is in communion with Rome...the Byzantine Orthodox are not though.Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13080339048891387402014-07-13T15:32:01.943-04:002014-07-13T15:32:01.943-04:00Joe Pollitor:
Thanks for the info. I'm not th...Joe Pollitor:<br /> Thanks for the info. I'm not that familiar with the Byzantine rite. There is a church up in the Atlanta area( Roswell,Ga.<br />My other question: Are all Byzantine churches in communion with Rome?<br />As far as your "thoughts of a priestly vocation". You are still relatively young so I say, go for it.You have the aptitude for the studies and it seems the proper attitude and also from your posts, an inclination in that direction.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88487751379746628032014-07-13T04:18:39.689-04:002014-07-13T04:18:39.689-04:00George, the hymn I quoted at the end is the Hymn f...George, the hymn I quoted at the end is the Hymn for Pentecost in the Byzantine Liturgy, it is sung often at the Beginning of the Liturgy and usually before the HomilyПравославный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46934922074630000252014-07-12T09:46:46.374-04:002014-07-12T09:46:46.374-04:00BTW, George, that prayer George quoted begins the...BTW, George, that prayer George quoted begins the Trisagion prayers that are recited at Orthros, Vespers, and other times as well. Not technically part of the Divine Liturgy, but recited daily.Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67012454057331451952014-07-12T09:39:00.698-04:002014-07-12T09:39:00.698-04:00Yes, Joe I will surely pray for you!! Thanks for ...Yes, Joe I will surely pray for you!! Thanks for sharing that info. <br /> I, too, became so affected by the "Roman" liturgy wars (and a parish war of a different matter that involved three new priestly assignments in five years) that I began attending a local Byzantine Catholic rite. There is no TLM available within 100 miles of my home. What blessed peace -- a liturgy totally focused on worship of God, ad orientam of course. I was desperate and knew my eternal soul was at risk. I didn't and don't think I had any other choice. God made it for me. I, like you, am non-canonical at this point. <br />I have so appreciated your comments here and know that you are a true seeker on a path to personal holiness. I feel the same is true of Henry and George. May God bless His beloved sons.Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69543770032667780812014-07-12T00:07:58.230-04:002014-07-12T00:07:58.230-04:00Joe Potillor:
That Prayer to the Holy Spirit you ...Joe Potillor:<br /><br />That Prayer to the Holy Spirit you quoted at the end of your post, is that ever recited as part of the Byzantine liturgy?<br /><br />Marc:<br />Dr Warren H. Carroll has written a multi-volume history of Christendom, "The Building Of Christendom" Here is what he said in a in piece he wrote which is on the EWTN web site:<br />"I deny that any Pope was ever a heretic, have researched each case where that is claimed, and will be glad to answer and refute any claim that any Pope ever committed himself or called upon the faithful to hold any heretical belief."<br /><br />Gene:<br />Homily? No. Isn't there some kind of requirement that one must study homelitics first? If that is the case, then no. I'm afraid also that any I do would suffer in the delivery. At any rate I couldn't do it without the express permission of the bishop who I would say would not be making a wise decision to give it. <br /><br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75478657389809237892014-07-11T20:16:13.636-04:002014-07-11T20:16:13.636-04:00Fr JBS, thank you for your kind comments.
Anon f...Fr JBS, thank you for your kind comments. <br /><br />Anon friend, although I'm canonically still Roman (probably not for much longer), I have been assisting at the Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) Liturgies for the past 2 years plus, doing so has definitely helped me to "see the bigger picture"...One thing I have not had to do is fight over the Liturgy which has left me free to adore, love and serve God. The liturgy wars are very taxing and downright damaging to the soul, in particular they were damaging me to near the point of despair. And the thoughts of a priestly vocation have come up in my head again...we'll see where they lead...if everyone could please pray for me that'd be awesome. <br /><br />Now back to the topic at hand<br /><br />The EF and OF are lawfully equal, Objectively equal (Jesus is there Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity), yet objectively distinct (different theologies, different prayers). The same mystery is being conveyed with different emphasis each have their advantages, each has their disadvantages. It becomes a form of idolatry when we place ourselves above what is received, when aesthetics become the substance reason for going to the EF, most certainly we need to guard ourselves from these sometimes all too real human tendencies....As it's often said, we can't base things upon emotions...It works both ways, priests can't veil the mysteries by doing abuses to the Mass, and the laity can't get caught in "trappings" and just view things in terms of the externals, but truly they should be praying, breathing and living the Liturgy as given to us. Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, everywhere present and filling all things, Treasury of blessings, and Giver of Life, come and dwell within us, cleanse us of all stain, and save our souls O Gracious One. Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-720173003927279232014-07-11T17:06:42.870-04:002014-07-11T17:06:42.870-04:00You working on a homily, George?You working on a homily, George?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35705085635279879652014-07-11T17:01:49.316-04:002014-07-11T17:01:49.316-04:00Thank you for that analogy, George. Although I nee...Thank you for that analogy, George. Although I need to ponder it some more, it is very helpful and illuminating. I would be interested to know what our priests on the Blog think about it.Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-50244039757625965922014-07-11T13:32:24.660-04:002014-07-11T13:32:24.660-04:00George, I appreciate your response, but I might di...George, I appreciate your response, but I might disagree with your history to some extent. Popes can fall into heresy just like anyone else. Their doing so doesn't mean that the gates of hell have prevailed over the Church. As you rightly say, it is up to the faithful to keep the faith even if the pope and every bishop abandons it.<br /><br />The difference with the current crisis is its very nature. It is unlike the other heresies because the current heresy attacks language itself (Modernism is a "meta-linguistic" heresy as someone else has noted).<br /><br />In that light, I think we each have to deal with the crisis in the most prudent way, which will probably be slightly different for different people. What you say is right in a general sense though: "It is up to us as faithful Catholics to persevere and endure, to pray and sacrifice, to live the Faith we profess."Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54790338758477141922014-07-11T13:05:10.127-04:002014-07-11T13:05:10.127-04:00
Has anyone thought about how Christ could be full...<br />Has anyone thought about how Christ could be fully and completely in each consecrated Host? It does not matter how many there are, if there are 10 Hosts or 10,000 Hosts or more, or if you take a single Host and break it into a thousand pieces,Christ’s Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity is fully and completely in each and every one. Some might wonder how can this be. I would ask how can it be that millions of people in different places watch the same television show fully and completely. If you open a web page on the Intranet, do you and many others who are opening the same web page not see it fully and completely? Whether it is ten or ten thousand or more viewing that same page? In times long ago, people would have considered these things beyond belief and a miracle. Yet for us today it is accepted as something quite ordinary. God possesses the Power to do the things He does and it is a power beyond our comprehension. Yet He Who is Power itself, defers His Power to the free will of His creatures. <br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90624586817078166402014-07-11T12:55:06.396-04:002014-07-11T12:55:06.396-04:00JBS:
"Joe Potillor, like Henry, tends to put ...JBS:<br />"Joe Potillor, like Henry, tends to put things in clear perspective without deliberately insulting anyone"<br /><br />JBS,One can characterize your responses in the same way.<br /><br />As far as for myself, if I have not been clear in what I post, I apologize. Some are better at clarity than others. As far as deliberately insulting anyone, I definitely did not intend to do that.Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60813428106487443642014-07-11T12:42:58.060-04:002014-07-11T12:42:58.060-04:00Marc:
"St. Athanasius was when he stood again...<br />Marc:<br />"St. Athanasius was when he stood against the whole Arian world and said, "They have the buildings, we have the Faith"? Haven't you heard of that prideful man St. Thomas More who dared to keep the Faith rather than become a Protestant even though all the bishops save one abandoned the Faith?"<br /><br />In each of the cases above, the axis of cohesian, the "center that held" was Rome. People within in the Church can succumb to or promote heresy, groups can end up in schism, but either one believes Christ's promise that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against her or one doesn't. No one has ever given me a valid reason not to attend the NO at St Joseph's. I attend both the EF and OF. I do try to understand those who have reservations about the NO though. Certainly in the case of the Mass that Anonymous describes above one can understand how that situation can outrage anyone who embraces the True Faith.<br /><br />There have been many times and places where the Church has been persecuted and many had to suffer much-even death. These are difficult times both inside and outside the Church. It is up to us as faithful Catholics to persevere and endure, to pray and sacrifice, to live the Faith we profess.<br /><br />(2 Timothy 4:7-8):<br />I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. <br /><br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30153119690049611542014-07-11T11:55:28.171-04:002014-07-11T11:55:28.171-04:00Precisely Henry, and JBS! B16 wanted the Clergy t...Precisely Henry, and JBS! B16 wanted the Clergy to experience the TLM so it would influence the way they said the NO, but the legions of Clergy refused to even try. Bishops and Pastors alike, in untold numbers stall, obfuscate, and flat out lie about why they can't say the EF. They Fear it as a Demon fears the Cross. Yet almost without fail, a Priest who says the EF admits it has a positive influence on him, and his parish. <br /><br />By their fruit you will recognize them.Templarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79253165947307552052014-07-11T09:32:40.536-04:002014-07-11T09:32:40.536-04:00Fr. JBS,
I absolutely agree with your assessment o...Fr. JBS,<br />I absolutely agree with your assessment of Joe's postings; do you find it interesting that he is an Eastern Catholic nowadays (perhaps always, I don't know). No liturgy wars going on over there! Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57449768329701899702014-07-11T09:14:26.833-04:002014-07-11T09:14:26.833-04:00Fr. JBS: "It is regular celebration of the EF...Fr. JBS: "It is regular celebration of the EF that informs my attitude at OF Masses, so that my practical experience of the two forms is truly that of one, single Roman rite of Mass."<br /><br />This is one of the most illuminating and perspicacious single sentences I recall reading here at southern orders. Among the priests I know who celebrate both forms, each observes the OF norms as carefully as he obeys the EF rubrics. But it is plainly visible in his manner of celebration of the OF that the EF has informed him better what it means for a priest to offer propitiatory sacrifice. <br /><br />This surely must have been a primary intent--and what he meant by "reconciliation at the heart of the Church"--of Pope Benedict in promulgating Summorum Pontificum. In a sense, the proliferation of faithful young priests celebrating both forms is benefiting the OF at least as much as the EF.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38415736253630382482014-07-11T08:29:22.056-04:002014-07-11T08:29:22.056-04:00I've just finished a Low Mass, served by an IC...I've just finished a Low Mass, served by an ICKSP seminarian. Now, I'm on my way to an OF Mass. I admit to being more focused on God in the EF Mass, but I also recognize that most Western Catholics prefer to encounter God in the OF. It is regular celebration of the EF that informs my attitude at OF Masses, so that my practical experience of the two forms is truly that of one, single Roman rite of Mass. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17432552045659998842014-07-11T08:21:02.243-04:002014-07-11T08:21:02.243-04:00Joe Potillor, like Henry, tends to put things in c...Joe Potillor, like Henry, tends to put things in clear perspective without deliberately insulting anyone. I think it's the highly logical nature of their minds and professions that helps them do so. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74751084361802181422014-07-11T04:51:27.086-04:002014-07-11T04:51:27.086-04:00The problem I see in attending NO liturgies where ...The problem I see in attending NO liturgies where abuse in many forms is always present is that the participants in time will be desensitized to the abuses and their faith will be deformed without they even realizing it.<br /><br />The way you pray is the way you will believe is not an empty cliche. Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32588700053399921102014-07-11T00:29:57.237-04:002014-07-11T00:29:57.237-04:00PI, I don't think Marc is questioning the vali...PI, I don't think Marc is questioning the validity of the NO, but getting to the heart that aestetics are not the base reason for going ot the TLM, which he's absolutely right on, there are objective differences between the theologies of the NO and the TLM....Remember the reformers succeeded in changing the faith (lowercased on purpose) by the change in the missal. <br /><br />Templar is absolutely right the priests who ignored Benedict XVI are absolutely in love with Francis. Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65356862759645198502014-07-11T00:18:35.658-04:002014-07-11T00:18:35.658-04:00"Rigidity" "Rigid"
It seems ..."Rigidity" "Rigid"<br /><br />It seems to me that these words are relatively new in the Catholic lexicon. They are almost (dare I say it? ) "postconciliar". It would be very interesting to see how often these words were used by the Church fathers and in what context if used at all.<br /><br />Sort of like that other new word for an intolerable, unforgivable sin: "Judgmental"<br /><br />Future generations of Catholics will laugh at us mercilessly. And from where I stand, we deserve it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61679300173859181832014-07-10T23:13:28.585-04:002014-07-10T23:13:28.585-04:00I would agree with Fr McDonald and others that the...I would agree with Fr McDonald and others that the situation Anonymous describes above definitely requires the intervention of the bishop and perhaps even Rome. In other cases where the Mass is not as abused or as abhorrent as this, perhaps one can be the spark that ignites a fire of change and brings about a reform in one of these parishs. How the Mass is celebrated is certainly of great importance because it comes down to showing the the respect and due reverence that we owe to God. Even at a poorly celebrated liturgy, there are those in attendance who are there with the proper disposition and a willingness to correspondent to the Holy Spirit and God appreciates that and will not deny them His grace. If the celebration of the liturgy is done poorly, without a necessary degree of reverence and piety, then it reflects a lack of respect for God. If there happen to be any non-Catholics in attendance, it would not leave them with a good impression, not to speak of those young children present who are still being formed in the Faith. <br />I read somewhere (it was in one of the biographies on her) that St Bernadette converted others just in the way she made the Sign of the Cross. So these externals acts and actions do matter.<br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91909806806202995252014-07-10T22:37:41.208-04:002014-07-10T22:37:41.208-04:00Would it really be that much trouble to give the f...Would it really be that much trouble to give the faithful a Low Mass very early or very late Sunday afternoon in good, reasonable driving distance for the entire diocese (within an hour or your local parish). <br /><br /> Even if this is might happen once-a-month or every-other-Sunday. Let’s say those same faithful would help fund this Mass so as not to take away from the other vital ministries of the local parish and ensure its time would not offend the majority. Would it not be the job of the parish priest to work within his parish community (and maybe call another parish who might have the same situation) to help a small minority of the faithful express their belief in Jesus Christ in a way they feel deepens their reverence to Christ in his Eucharistic form. Would it not further the missionary spirit of the diocese itself? <br /><br />But let’s be honest – only certain people, with certain problems get that sort of consideration. <br /><br />Why? We all know why. Because the only reason “we” like the EF of the Mass is it is in a funny and musical language with pretty vestments and maybe polyphony thrown in for those who can afford it. And “we” just want to cause trouble and appear holier-than-thou to our brothers and sisters. Our small little minds are stuck in 1965 – or worse yet, in the reign of Pius XII. And, of course, we secretly harbor (and give money that should go to our parish and our diocese) to that mean-old archbishop’s club that cannot get with the spirit-of-the-times. <br /><br />The good PI is correct – it is much easier to submit and obey; smiling through another grand chorus of “Table of Plenty.” ;) I think we all have our tempers and vanities. For example, I really am not pleased with the Holy Father moving Paul VI ahead of someone else (and we all know who he is). After all, not having a clear miracle (or two) kept the other one from being canonized, right? Never mind – submit and obey; love it or else you are uncharitable and are not a part of a vital and dynamic faith community, etc.Nathanaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8105517689279211472014-07-10T22:13:59.821-04:002014-07-10T22:13:59.821-04:00Th difference is that any of us Catholics temp God...Th difference is that any of us Catholics temp God by assuming that since He is happy with a small gift that a small gift is good enough. We were in a parish once where an addled old lady would occasionally begin skipping around and singing. Her gift to God was pleasing. If I had done it should rightfully have been tossed out. Similarly I have attended some pretty humble and maybe less than stellar Masses, but they were perfect because they were complete as the people in those places could make them. It is when are sloppy on purpose to show our solidarity with the poor that we mock them and God's sacrifice in our laziness. <br /><br />I love dogs but I would have thrown it physically from the Church and made sure people saw me do it. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.com