tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2579067255060322047..comments2024-03-28T18:02:12.286-04:00Comments on southern orders: REALISM AND LITURGICAL RENEWALFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24548574084443351312014-02-27T06:49:47.437-05:002014-02-27T06:49:47.437-05:00So, Anonymous, just what degrees do you have (don&...So, Anonymous, just what degrees do you have (don't lie)? Mine are listed in my personal info. Click on it.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29701607601350154522014-02-26T22:17:12.351-05:002014-02-26T22:17:12.351-05:00Anonymous, what problem do you have with the rise ...Anonymous, what problem do you have with the rise of the papacy(as in your quote below)?<br /><br />"Having studied the history and the Fathers, my current guess is that the Roman Church defected in the 9th Century with the rise of the papacy and the advent of Frankish influence on Church governance, doctrine and liturgy."<br /><br />We Catholics recognize the pope as the successor to St. Peter.<br /><br />Interesting that you chose the 9th century as that being when the "Roman Church defected". Are you perhaps Eastern Orthodox?<br /><br />February 26, 2014 at 10:40 AMGeorgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41196969662373340452014-02-26T22:00:58.493-05:002014-02-26T22:00:58.493-05:00Anonymous 3:31 - And what was so "substantive...Anonymous 3:31 - And what was so "substantive" about Pastor Gene's 2:12 comment. You know,the one where he used the ad hominem, snarky comments about "plebes" and "hysterical" comments, hmmm? <br /><br />Such selective outrage...<br /><br />Pastor Gene - My degrees, undergraduate and graduate, are from Catholic colleges and universities. Are yours?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70683849049849180862014-02-26T21:17:00.278-05:002014-02-26T21:17:00.278-05:00I would argue that Vat II was a qualitatively diff...I would argue that Vat II was a qualitatively different and more extreme morph than the others you mention. It fundamentally changed Catholic identity and the implications of the OF are that it is a move toward protestantism.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51139565790356150552014-02-26T18:09:57.974-05:002014-02-26T18:09:57.974-05:00George, I wouldn't agree with your assessment ...George, I wouldn't agree with your assessment based on a rather intense and multi-faceted study of these things. For example, I am of the opinion that when an Ecumenical Council promulgates a Creed that is ratified by subsequent councils with an admonition that the Creed is not be changed, the one who then changes the Creed is more likely to be the one morphing than the one who refuses to change the Creed. Anyway, as to Trent specifically, my list was merely presenting periods in which various groups argue the Roman Church morphed (by which I mean changed substantially). Trent was the pinnacle of scholastic theology, which itself was a huge change in the Church. Hence the augment w of morphing at Trent.<br /><br />That is an admittedly simple example of a larger issue that should be considered. And frankly, it is an issue that is too big for this blog and its comment section.<br /><br />At any rate, my only point is that the Roman Church has morphed over time. The question is whether that morphing matters, that is whether it involves heresy.<br /><br />Based on your comment, my guess is that you and I would disagree about the answer to that question. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10032991806799158762014-02-26T17:37:55.100-05:002014-02-26T17:37:55.100-05:00Anonymous, Trent should not be included. it's ...Anonymous, Trent should not be included. it's purpose was to counter the "morphing" of Luther and his followers. I would say that it's not the Church that morphs, but rather those members of her who morph into schism and heresy. Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82627697684343761152014-02-26T16:01:35.742-05:002014-02-26T16:01:35.742-05:00Anonymous, why don't you document your graduat...Anonymous, why don't you document your graduate degrees and seminary degrees for us, then?Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21469762789951190052014-02-26T15:31:16.642-05:002014-02-26T15:31:16.642-05:00I wonder if our rude Anonymous knows enough Latin ...I wonder if our rude Anonymous knows enough Latin to understand the meaning of "ad hominem"?<br /><br />If one has nothing substantive to offer, why comment? "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28194419504760392022014-02-26T15:26:35.644-05:002014-02-26T15:26:35.644-05:00And, of course, Pastor Gene is the only one here w...And, of course, Pastor Gene is the only one here with an actual history of theological and Biblical study. So, conveniently, anyone who does not see things as he does is hysterical.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36744158336910194482014-02-26T14:12:55.084-05:002014-02-26T14:12:55.084-05:00When plebes like Anonymous encounter someone with ...When plebes like Anonymous encounter someone with an actual history of theological and Biblical study, they almost always become hysterical because they feel threatened. They haven't the resources with which to engage in real dialogue, so they try the smart-ass approach. Nobody cares.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37906550029648603482014-02-26T13:14:43.203-05:002014-02-26T13:14:43.203-05:00Of course, Pastor Gene, with his superior understa...Of course, Pastor Gene, with his superior understanding of all things theological and Catholic will, alone, be able to withstand the slow morph of the Church. Then he will form his band of three like minded converts and they will reestablish the True Church in a garage in East Macon...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58578812072790551702014-02-26T10:40:57.567-05:002014-02-26T10:40:57.567-05:00Gene, the Church isn't slowly morphing into a ...Gene, the Church isn't slowly morphing into a different Church. It has already morphed into a different Church.<br /><br />The only question is when that happened. <br /><br />Was it in the 4th Century as the Protestants argue? Was it in the 6th Century as the non-Chalcedonians argue? Was it in the 9th Century as the Chalcedonian Orthodox argue? Was it in the 12th Century with the credal change? Was it in the 16th Century with Trent and the counter reformation? Was it in the 19th Century with Vatican I and the declation of the new doctrine of papal infallibility? Was it in the 20th Century with Vatican II?<br /><br />Having studied the history and the Fathers, my current guess is that the Roman Church defected in the 9th Century with the rise of the papacy and the advent of Frankish influence on Church governance, doctrine and liturgy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12149285144659606182014-02-26T10:35:02.015-05:002014-02-26T10:35:02.015-05:00There is a fascinating post by Fr. Christopher Smi...There is a fascinating post by Fr. Christopher Smith over at Chant Cafe blog with some intelligent, mostly unemotional discussion to follow re: Is the ROTR dead? Fr. Smith is an an awe-some (hate that word, but nothing else really describes him) priest over here in SC whom I first met several years ago. He has accomplished some amazing things in this non-Catholic state!! <br />Anon friendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1953357814605352142014-02-26T10:02:18.838-05:002014-02-26T10:02:18.838-05:00But my own opinion is that the single most immedia...But my own opinion is that the single most immediately fruitful step would be ad orientem worship generally.<br /><br />I wonder whether your experience there, Fr. McDonald, indicates that what happened when a small town Wisconsin parish "turned towards the Lord" a year ago, would likely happen in a typical parish elsewhere:<br /><br />http://www.knightsofdivinemercy.com/2014/02/22/the-fruits-of-ad-orientem-worship/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84106727272984994082014-02-26T09:55:56.395-05:002014-02-26T09:55:56.395-05:00It's beginning to seem obvious that the reform...It's beginning to seem obvious that the reform of the reform is a dead letter at least for the balance of the current papacy--in terms of making lists of desirable features of a revision of the OF missal, which now seems unlikely to be in the prospect for the foreseeable future. But a sensible brief statement from Patrick Archbold:<br /><br />http://www.creativeminorityreport.com/2014/02/what-should-replace-reform-of-reform.html<br /><br />"However, I have thought for some time that much greater emphasis should be placed on an Excellence in Liturgy Movement. I think this could be a much broader based movement than the 'reform of the reform.'<br /><br />"This movement should focus on the broad elimination of liturgical abuses and the promotion of those elements specifically referenced in Sacrosanctum Concilium.<br /><br />"Let us broadly perform the Novus Ordo mass as best as it can be performed. Let it be standard and reliable across the board. When we have a achieved that, we are in a much better place to discuss what the future of reform looks like."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91525162592721080282014-02-26T08:06:49.622-05:002014-02-26T08:06:49.622-05:00Fr, options is the problem to begin with. Nobody, ...Fr, options is the problem to begin with. Nobody, or very few, are going to say the black and do the red. There is no fix for the OF, and there is no fix for the slow but certain drift of the Church toward culture and humanistic orientations. Well, there are some fixes but they would be considered extreme and impolitic…which is to say, there are no fixes. <br /><br />We are going to have to accept the fact that the Church is morphing slowly into a different Church. This is God's will for now, but whether it becomes a harsh judgement or a mere wake up call that leads us back to Him remains to be seen.<br /><br />I wish you and some others would stop playing this game of OF and Pope "Twister" in an attempt to justify liturgical and theological enormities. The Church is in crisis and the faith of millions is threatened. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.com