tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2476676566615699241..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: POPE FRANCIS BRINGS ISRAEL AND PALESTINE TOGETHER FOR PRAYER, AND BY THE WAY, CATHOLICS, ORTHODOX, JEWS AND MUSLIMS TOO! SURELY THIS IS A MOMENT IN HISTORY!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29897780075197549512014-06-11T14:53:44.013-04:002014-06-11T14:53:44.013-04:00"I must be the bearer of bad news, most prote..."I must be the bearer of bad news, most protestants have an idea of what the Church teaches and stands for and they reject it."<br /><br />In which part of the world do you live?! "Most protestants" in my home town believed we: worship Mary, believe in a "third place" as an eternal destination, believe the Pope to be either a god or demigod (and higher than Christ), believe Sacred Tradition trumps Scripture, commit human sacrifice, and that we can do whatever we want as long as we go to Confession. <br /><br />That, to me, does not meet the definition of what you mean by "have some idea". In fact, even you (as I believe you said elsewhere on this blog that you are an Anglican priest) would not, by their evangelical standards, be considered protestant. You would be considered a quasi-Catholic with your prayerbooks, vestments, and "canned" liturgies. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52509536227018254612014-06-10T20:21:58.864-04:002014-06-10T20:21:58.864-04:00JBS etal,
My confusion comes from seeing on this ...JBS etal,<br /><br />My confusion comes from seeing on this thread statements alluding that the Roman Catholic Church position prior to Vat II was protestants worship or did worship a false god.<br /><br />If I could. Since St Cyprian in the 3rd century, and repeated through Church History, taught there is no salvation outside the Church. And St Ignatius of Antioch tells us let me paraphrase, no bishop no church. Did Vat II change that by redefining the meaning of Church?<br />I agree Trent was a reaction to the teachings of the protestant reformation or rebellion if you like. But it also appears Vat II changed, modified or adjusted teachings held prior to Trent. Hence my reference to ST Cyprian and Ignatius. And many more of the Church Fathers, Saints and Doctors of the Church which I won't mention.<br /><br />I must be the bearer of bad news, most protestants have an idea of what the Church teaches and stands for and they reject it. Whether it be Marian Dogmas, office of the Pope, justification, baptism for remission of sin or baptismal regeneration. Protestants, for the most part, know the Church does not teach faith alone and reject the Churches teaching on justification, faith and works. So they full well know and embrace the heresy and division regardless of the softening of the Church's position towards them.<br /><br />So I guess I was longed winded to ask, did the Church have teachings prior to Vat II that placed protestants due to protestant belief outside the Church and thus outside salvation. Is Sts Cyprian and Ignatius in error, and all the Popes, leaders etc. that cited them and relied on that teaching in error?<br /><br />Second part, yes I am long winded.<br /><br />How does the Holy Scriptures line up with what is being taught about the Muslims? Jesus and St John both seem to be saying, reject Christ reject God. If the Muslims reject Jesus as Christ, and they do, how can they worship the same God as we do. For Jesus and John say you can't reject Christ and still claim to worship the same God as the Christians.<br /><br />And do Muslims say we worship the same God? Or do they have a different concept of god and we are projecting our belief, hopes etc onto them? <br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14620104612131979272014-06-10T19:49:54.886-04:002014-06-10T19:49:54.886-04:00Gene:
I found that article to be long, tedious als...Gene:<br />I found that article to be long, tedious also. I thought he had made some interesting points though. <br /><br />Father McDonald:<br />You bring up an important point. The Holy Father is not only is the leader of the world's Roman Catholics but also a sovereign head of state. <br /><br />Anonymous2<br /><br />In Africa alone, millionns of Muslims have converted to Christianity so that shows what can be done. Mr Spencer did note that the pertinent Vatican II documents did say "Mohammedans" and not "Islam". This is an important distinction.<br /><br /><br />JBS<br />You bring up an important point in stating "Since they do not know any better, they cannot be held guilty of heresy and division." These can be difficult waters to wade into since it is God who will judge each person individually. The Divine grace of God through power of the the Holy Spirit reaches out beyond the physical boundaries of the Church to those who through no definitive act of the will and with full knowledge have rejected her truth. The grace is available through the generosity and love of the Merciful God. He is God to all - even to those who don't recognize all His truths. It is up to those, according to how they are disposed to co-operation with the Holy Spirit, to accept His grace. We must always and constantly pray for conversions.<br /><br />Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87045331262650581332014-06-10T08:16:18.969-04:002014-06-10T08:16:18.969-04:00Anonymous,
The Church did not, prior to VCII, tea...Anonymous,<br /><br />The Church did not, prior to VCII, teach that Protestants worship a false God. Further, teaching on Protestants up to that time was in reaction to the Reformation itself, during which Catholics adopted the various heresys of Luther and the like. VCII merely acknowledged that there are now multiple generations of Protestants who have not freely and personally chosen to abandon the fullness of truth or full incorporation into the Church. Since they do not know any better, they cannot be held guilty of heresy and division. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22941087594892141782014-06-10T08:06:02.533-04:002014-06-10T08:06:02.533-04:00Pater Ignotus,
"If acts of violence by Musli...Pater Ignotus,<br /><br />"If acts of violence by Muslims...": agreed.Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31245813258708107762014-06-10T05:27:35.562-04:002014-06-10T05:27:35.562-04:00One of the reasons for the Vatican and it's co...One of the reasons for the Vatican and it's complicated diplomatic corps and the pope as head of state of the smallest nation on earth is to promote peace on the world stage as a function of the Gospel mandate! The Vatican Interfaith Prayer Service makes me proud to be a Catholic and the international peacemaking role of the papacy. Pope Francis is recovering this divine legacy!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8411978502166578742014-06-10T04:07:31.018-04:002014-06-10T04:07:31.018-04:00I'll keep my comments short and sweet…God have...I'll keep my comments short and sweet…God have mercy on us. Assisi I-III (as bad as they were) were pale in comparison to this…God have mercy...Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-92167638220635279052014-06-09T23:53:40.171-04:002014-06-09T23:53:40.171-04:00George:
Thank you for the link. I read the articl...George:<br /><br />Thank you for the link. I read the article. It is written by the director of Jihad Watch, Robert Spencer. This may account for the tortured exegesis of the Vatican II documents and the selective history. The author’s best point comes at the end when he talks about understanding Vatican II in the context of the times and notes the different and more challenging nature of the contemporary context. But I would turn that argument in favor of working with reformist impulses within the Islamic world during the current “battle for the soul of Islam” so as to help ensure that Muslim societies continue to develop in a healthy direction that resists radicalization while remaining true to authentic Islamic values rather than perverted ones.<br /><br />Prudent and authentic inter-faith dialogue is surely part of this process. We should then trust that God will reveal to hearts and minds what needs to be revealed.<br /><br /><br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77434738523490383412014-06-09T23:52:04.059-04:002014-06-09T23:52:04.059-04:00Gene:
“I completely understand why the Church bur...Gene:<br /><br />“I completely understand why the Church burned heretics and false teachers. Be thankful that neither of you lived in the thirteenth century.”<br /><br />Accepting your above premise for the sake of argument, I am indeed thankful that I do not live in the thirteenth century. Although I would not presume to speak for him, I suspect Pater Ignotus is also thankful that he does not live in the thirteenth century. Indeed, I suspect Father McDonald is thankful, the Church Fathers who gave us Vatican II are thankful, Pope Francis is thankful. A whole host of Catholics must be very thankful that they did not live in the thirteenth century. Why? -- Because, on your premise, and apparently with your approval, all of us would have been burned at the stake as heretics and false teachers for accepting the Vatican II teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Islam. Your indictment of me and Pater Ignotus indicts all of us. I assume you would have burned St. Francis of Assisi too. I hope you realize what you are saying.<br /><br />Anyway, while you were typing your rants, I was reading again a very illuminating book published in 2002 by a Mercer Professor Emeritus, Rollin Armour, on how the Christian West has responded to Islam over the centuries, entitled “Islam, Christianity, and the West: A Troubled History.” Perhaps you know the author or even had him as a professor. You might want to read it before your next rant. Of course, I expect you would have wanted to burn Rollin at the stake too:<br /><br />http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/islam-christianity-and-the-west-rollin-s-armour/1111031447?ean=9781570754074<br /><br />I am not denying the existence of dangerous elements within Islam. And – if you want to feed these elements, then by all means carry on with the rants. They are doubtless very effective in confirming radical Muslim stereotypes of the West and Christianity as the enemy of Muslims and Islam, just as radical Muslim rants are effective in confirming your own stereotypes of Muslims and Islam as the enemy of the West and Christianity.<br /><br />By the way, for a latter day Thrasymachus such as your good self to accuse Pater Ignotus and me of practicing a deadly sophistic is highly ironic, no? <br />Anonymous 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70305002344739019932014-06-09T22:02:05.610-04:002014-06-09T22:02:05.610-04:00George, I found that article to be long, tedious a...George, I found that article to be long, tedious and noncommittal. He talks all around the issue.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14856498083089219502014-06-09T22:01:10.344-04:002014-06-09T22:01:10.344-04:00Well, I agree with the Anglican Priest…imagine tha...Well, I agree with the Anglican Priest…imagine that!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13323647902951791582014-06-09T21:17:13.915-04:002014-06-09T21:17:13.915-04:00If I may add to this discussion.
A couple of poin...If I may add to this discussion.<br /><br />A couple of points for clarification. Prior to Vat II protestants worship a false God and since they are outside the Church, they can not inherit the Kingdom. Vat II changed this teaching. <br /><br />So was the Church in error and teaching error prior to Vat II and if so why did the Holy Spirit allow this for 1,963 years?<br /><br />This thread seems to be supporting Articles 19 and 20 of the 39 Articles of Religion.<br /><br />Why has no one gone to Holy Scripture? Jesus in John 8 starting around verse 39 and going to 59 talks about those who confess God, but are as Jesus called them children of the devil. Yes these were Jews, pharisees to be precise and not Islamic. But it fits Islam.<br /><br />Johns 1st general epistle, chapter 2:22-23. Read it, but basically, deny Jesus is Christ, you are anti-christ and reject God.<br /><br />The early church was very clear is the scriptures it gave us. You can not have God if you reject Jesus as Christ for you are rejecting God as Jesus is God in flesh.<br /><br />Can Muslims and Jews be saved? Of course just as Christians can be saved. We must seek to convert the non-believer out of love and compassion for their soul. To tell them they are ok in their worship does not help. Can they find Christ in their scriptures...of course. <br /><br />Since we like analogies. I know the current resident of the White House. I know of him, know about him etc. I can not walk into the White House and expect to get past the Marines and police buy saying I know the president. He has to know me and have sent me an invitation. Without the invitation I do not get in.<br /><br />God sent us an invitation...Christ. We can know alot about God and Christ, but as Christ himself said in Matthew 7, just knowing is not enough.<br /><br />I pray good will come from the Popes decision to allow "event". I do not think so, as the Muslims will see this as a victory over the false god of christianity. <br /><br />Just a view from an Anglican priest.<br /><br />MarkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11508049560354795082014-06-09T19:47:13.265-04:002014-06-09T19:47:13.265-04:00Something good to read on this topic.
http://www....Something good to read on this topic.<br /><br /><br><a href="http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/do-catholics-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god" rel="nofollow">http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/do-catholics-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god</a>Georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65920646899096410072014-06-09T19:29:40.636-04:002014-06-09T19:29:40.636-04:00Marc, Do you remember the old Monty Python skit ab...Marc, Do you remember the old Monty Python skit about "Eric the Half-Bee?" It was a spoof on philosophers (possibly like G.E. Moore) regarding essence, substance, etc. Pretty funny and most apropos for your conversation with Ignotus. At what point in perception is God not God.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48726163469968632262014-06-09T19:14:07.881-04:002014-06-09T19:14:07.881-04:00Okay, Pater. Thank you for addressing those questi...Okay, Pater. Thank you for addressing those questions. I appreciate your answer.<br /><br />I'm curious how much one can misperceive and still be said to be seeing the same God.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21808950559364020972014-06-09T18:56:16.787-04:002014-06-09T18:56:16.787-04:00Marc - And the person who misperceives a stop sign...Marc - And the person who misperceives a stop sign, thinking it is a yield sign, is STILL seeing the same stop sign I'm seeing, though he understands it incorrectly.<br /><br />The person who misperceives the Triune God, thinking Him a unary God, is STILL seeing the same God, though he understands it incorrectly.<br /><br />Pin/Gene - No I am arguing that God's nature is NOT changed by how God is perceived. If Jews and Muslims misperceive God and think Him unary, God's Triune nature is unchanged.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73390817955772945342014-06-09T18:55:37.193-04:002014-06-09T18:55:37.193-04:00Gene, that idea about God that Pater is espousing ...Gene, that idea about God that Pater is espousing is part of a certain theological trend, or heresy, called... <br /><br />Modernism.Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-80340556683741907312014-06-09T18:53:44.888-04:002014-06-09T18:53:44.888-04:00Pater, how have I misused the term "modernism...Pater, how have I misused the term "modernism"?<br /><br />Also, maybe you can try to address the actual questions:<br /><br />How can one who misunderstands the essence of God be said to worship God when that person posits a god with a completely different essence? At what point do the different understandings of God's essence become so great that one stops worshipping the True God?Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11703894720542232202014-06-09T18:50:26.660-04:002014-06-09T18:50:26.660-04:00BTW, God's nature is not dependent upon the pe...BTW, God's nature is not dependent upon the person's understanding Him. You make it sound that way…but, Hell, you make everything sound screwed up.Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16287664458134129592014-06-09T18:48:51.297-04:002014-06-09T18:48:51.297-04:00Ignotus, But, Catholicism was the True Faith apply...Ignotus, But, Catholicism was the True Faith applying the sword in righteous might. Your relativism is showing.<br /><br />BTW, you can purchase an AR-15 for about a grand. Go to Academy Sports. They have the best prices. Pick up several extra 20 round magazines and maybe 500rnds of .223 ammo to start. Get the carbine. It handles well and is quicker to bring to target. The sights are tricky to beginners, but I'll have you popping targets at 200 yards before you know it. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5269170736437487742014-06-09T18:34:54.683-04:002014-06-09T18:34:54.683-04:00Marc - You misuse of the term "Modernism"...Marc - You misuse of the term "Modernism" shows you don't know its meaning.<br /><br />Your perception of the yield sign doesn't change the nature of the stop sign. <br /><br />A person who does not see God as Triune does not alter the Triune nature of God.<br /><br />But I did not speak to the nature of God; rather, I spoke to the how the person seeing God understands God.<br /><br />JBS - If acts of violence by Muslims that are based on theology can be used to condemn Muslims, then acts of violence used by Catholics that are based on theology can be used to condemn Catholics. We, too, employed the "faith by the sword" principle.<br /><br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-8575829397437376232014-06-09T18:33:58.704-04:002014-06-09T18:33:58.704-04:00I'm right there with Marc. You guys are not ge...I'm right there with Marc. You guys are not getting it, I don't care if you are Priests. Your slavish worship of the non-dogmatic, non-infallible Vatican II comes far closer to idolatry than any liturgist or protestant Biblical fundamentalist. Islam is evil, of the Devil, false, and an enemy of the Judaeo-Christian tradition and culture.<br /><br /> I'll tell you Fr's what...this is a one time offer…in an effort to get you both on the right track vis a vis Islam, I will teach you (absolutely free) to shoot, clean and maintain an AR-15 rifle. You can even bless it and the ammo. In fact, I wish you would sprinkle mine with a little Holy Water...Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90545716832812132432014-06-09T18:15:00.918-04:002014-06-09T18:15:00.918-04:00I cannot believe Gene and I are actually having to...I cannot believe Gene and I are actually having to argue against this utterly ridiculous idea that Muslims, whose primary profession of faith is deliberately anti-Christ, worship the same God who so graciously became incarnate for us.<br /><br />This is blasphemy. Plain and simple. You "priests" might as well go urinate on the relics of all that martyred at the hands of the "religion of peace."Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47209532894762931202014-06-09T18:10:12.442-04:002014-06-09T18:10:12.442-04:00Ignotus, It is you that does not understand Modern...Ignotus, It is you that does not understand Modernism because you are trying to define it from within it. It is like someone trying to describe the outside of a house they have never seen from inside it. Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91433213799161653892014-06-09T17:44:52.746-04:002014-06-09T17:44:52.746-04:00Pater Ignotus,
Thank you for your observations, t...Pater Ignotus,<br /><br />Thank you for your observations, to which I would add that Pope Benedict did indeed comment upon the militant tendencies of medieval Islam, tendencies developed despite earlier rejections of the "faith by sword" principal. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.com