tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2430173811181287011..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: INFALLIBILITY APPLIED TO A SPECIFIC SCHOOL OF INTERPRETING SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUMFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77489200265392120182012-12-20T07:04:49.831-05:002012-12-20T07:04:49.831-05:00I think the Second Vatican Council was hijacked by...I think the Second Vatican Council was hijacked by well-intentioned reformers who wanted to take the ball and run with it. I don't think the documents of Vatican II read in a strict, literal sense called for the type of rupture in Catholic identity, either liturgically, ecclesially or otherwise that the "spirit of Vatican II" theologians and bishops thought that it did.<br /><br />I am very much in agreement that Ecumencial Councils are some of the most authoritative forms of Catholic teaching and promoting pastoral practice, the most authoritative way that the Pope and bishops in union with him excerise their commission to "teach, rule and sanctify."<br />Thus I very much think we should have followed Sacrosanctum Concilium to the letter in revising the 1962 missal and I think the 1962 missal should have been allowed from the beginning to maintain a place of pride in the liturgical life of the Church and if it had it would have certainly balanced the unbridled experimentation with the Ordinary Form we saw after the Council. <br /><br />So, I would say that I am a disciple of Pope Benedict and his vision for reform in continuity and accepting all of Vatican II through the lens of continuity. That vision when implemented will bring about the authentic renewal that Vatican II desired and perhaps a reformed liturgy that is actually more in continuity with the 1962 missal. But I still contend that the revised missal as it is today can be in continuity with the 1962 missal if celebrated ad orientem, with some Latin, and kneeling for Holy Communion, not anything that is radical or opposed to Vatican II at all and in fact allowed since the Council, but who really knows and understands that when most Catholics were told all these things were wrong!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-92208434368840828892012-12-20T06:38:48.021-05:002012-12-20T06:38:48.021-05:00I'm a little confused, Father. Are you saying...I'm a little confused, Father. Are you saying that Vatican II is to blame for the crisis of faith in the Church, that it produced the rebellion against Humanae Vitae, and the pro abortion, anti-Catholic catholic politicians in our era? Are you also saying that unlike other councils, Vatican II is not infallible? Are you saying that we should ignore and discount Sacrosanctum Concilium?<br /><br />Not to be disrespectful, but your post left me with more questions than it answered. Catholic in Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02714284710110785019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54635070473310918982012-12-19T18:16:31.358-05:002012-12-19T18:16:31.358-05:00Anon 5, truer words haven't been spoken...Anon 5, truer words haven't been spoken...Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-686621011653784392012-12-19T16:03:26.429-05:002012-12-19T16:03:26.429-05:00Here is thought: the problem with OF parishes prod...Here is thought: the problem with OF parishes producing acolytes may be because people can be priests in the pews. Why go to all that trouble with seminary? We can hold hands during Pater Noster, raise them during the little doxology, hold our hands out and bless people during Mass, write prayers, songs, modify prayers to be more 'inclusive', define posters during communion, rank order Church teaching to promote social justice ahead of respect for life so we can get abortions. There really is not much left.<br /><br />Why did the bishops and clergy let that happen?rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12146837223727259182012-12-19T15:46:28.061-05:002012-12-19T15:46:28.061-05:00John Nolan: "Here, here!" is how the unw...John Nolan: "Here, here!" is how the unwashed back in the mountains out here in the colonies say "Hear, hear!"Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57593488460641103072012-12-19T13:49:48.955-05:002012-12-19T13:49:48.955-05:00Anonymous 5: Here, here!Anonymous 5: Here, here!Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46184050880853515032012-12-19T12:27:11.651-05:002012-12-19T12:27:11.651-05:00Is this a watershed post? Father McD, you seem to ...Is this a watershed post? Father McD, you seem to be echoing some of the ideas that I and some others here have been putting forward in recent weeks about the pastoral nature of the council and its response to transient 20th century problems. I approve!<br /><br />I would, however, add two statements to your "how then" list, or perhaps replace the one about pro-abort politicians. <br /><br />How then can we say that Vatican II has been fulfilled when the hierarchy refuses to teach the authentic meaning of VII in concert with previous councils in a way that can readily be understood and acted upon?<br /><br />How then can we say that Vatican II has been fulfilled when the hierarchy refuses to enforce orthodoxy in the face of rampant and scandalous doctrinal dissent and liturgical abuse by suppressing the dissent/abuse and sanctioning dissenters by public excommunication and other means?<br /><br />Our current state of affairs didn't just happen. It happened because the hierarchy stood by and let it happen, (that is, when the hierarchy wasn't actively <i>encouraging</i> it to happen.<br />Hammer of Fascistshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08647227447212096501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12381547705355606922012-12-19T12:01:37.734-05:002012-12-19T12:01:37.734-05:00"How then can we say that Vatican II has been..."How then can we say that Vatican II has been fulfilled with the majority of Catholics who enter public politics appear to accept abortion of demand, the HHS mandate and same sex marriage? "<br /><br />Exactly. <br /><br />How is it that JFK's daughter Caroline can go on network TV and proclaim her Catholic faith right next to her faith in abortion on demand and not receive so much as a whimper of rebuke from her bishop?<br /><br />The biggest enemies of the Church, those who do the most damage, are Catholics themselves. The late Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Kathleen Sebelius, Mario Cuomo and his son Andrew, and countless others offer us a national-level bad witness every day. And, as of this writing, still nothing is done about it. They are Catholics in good standing receiving sacrilegious Communions every time they attend Mass, which emboldens their followers in the Church to do the same.<br /><br />The false facade is crumbling, but to watch these backstabbers in action, you'd think their charade is going to go on forever.Joe Shlabotnicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91853388381862724702012-12-19T10:21:15.283-05:002012-12-19T10:21:15.283-05:00exciting new agenda
I can't really recall, ev...<i>exciting new agenda</i><br /><br />I can't really recall, even as a child, when if ever I found any of it "exciting." For some reason, I always felt that there was something a bit... off with all of it, but because I couldn't put my finger on it, and because very few people told me otherwise, I assumed for the most part that this was the way things were (though I had a sneaking suspicion that they weren't from the fact that my 4th grade teacher in the 80s was a missionary nun in a habit who, despite the multicultural and pluralistic composition of the class, shared the Catholic faith with us all (and indeed catechized everyone through the basics and sharing the lives of the Saints with us each day), anyway. There was just a lot of cultural dissonance going on, and I didn't know how it all fit together.<br /><br /><i>seemed unstoppable</i><br /><br />I read an article linked from the National Catholic Register once that pointed out that heresy "gets things done." <br /><br />In fact, you can be so busy "getting things done" that you may not even realize that you're about to run yourself off the rails. <br /><br />Progressivism isn't just blind faith; it's bad faith. And it's probably not an exaggeration that bad faith of any sort becomes hollowed out after a while. At its worst, it becomes nonsense.WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25304126580908259652012-12-19T10:15:33.706-05:002012-12-19T10:15:33.706-05:00One of the very finest of your many fine posts, Fr...One of the very finest of your many fine posts, Fr. McDonald! I trust, pray tell, that it will receive appropriate notice at that progressivist blog which you support so enthusiastically with your frequent posts there<br /><br />"Traditionalists who love the hermeneutic of reform in continuity love the post Vatican II liturgy celebrated by the book (say the black and do the red) when sacred music is in continuity with sacred chant of the past, when Latin is allowed, kneeling for Holy Communion a clear option and ad orientem more frequent."<br /><br />Indeed. Although an admitted TLM advocate, I know traditional Catholics (including myself) who will attend instead an OF Mass such as you describe (if only for its relative novelty).Henry Edwardshttp://www.knoxlatinmass.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4554380761548670612012-12-19T09:37:40.624-05:002012-12-19T09:37:40.624-05:00"Creeping infallibility" is a phrase use..."Creeping infallibility" is a phrase used by disillusioned liberals who have seen their exciting new agenda, which in the 1960s and 1970s seemed unstoppable, questioned in the last two decades and increasingly found wanting. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.com