tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post220987632330775393..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: EVEN THE AWFUL 1970 ROMAN MISSAL ENGLISH TRANSLATION IS BETTER THAN THE STYLES OF MUSIC THAT DEGRADE THE ROMAN MISSALFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87440798271379804452017-09-16T21:34:44.789-04:002017-09-16T21:34:44.789-04:00Daniel, this blog is not the place for a lengthy d...Daniel, this blog is not the place for a lengthy dissertation, with musical examples, which would show that Beethoven's music represents one of the highest achievements of mankind. I suggest you look at the first movement of the 'Eroica' symphony, where he takes a simple eight-note motif from a juvenile opera by Mozart and uses it to build a seamless construction lasting twenty minutes, a daring and utterly original handling of sonata form, a large-scale integration of contrasts (melody, harmony, tonality, rhythm, instrumentation, dynamics, mood) creating an inexorable sense of forward movement. Nothing like it had been attempted before. <br /><br />Popular music can't do any of this. It's harmonically unadventurous, has musical ideas but fails to develop them, is rhythmically repetitive and lacks tonal and dynamic contrast. It scales no heights and plumbs no depths. It's here today, gone tomorrow in most cases (there are notable exceptions). It's not intellectually challenging. Pretentious videos can't conceal its superficiality. Sorry, Beyoncé, I didn't mean to single you out; I picked your name for the sake of alliteration. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59811342193855853362017-09-14T18:58:53.018-04:002017-09-14T18:58:53.018-04:00Daniel,
I'm blaming Arturo Fuente for this. ...Daniel,<br /><br />I'm blaming Arturo Fuente for this. I just lit a cigar and decided to try and post from my phone. Spell checker sometimes does its own thing.ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40388537248802255982017-09-14T17:53:07.259-04:002017-09-14T17:53:07.259-04:00You are right, John, my original point was that mu...You are right, John, my original point was that music can not objectively be proven to be good or bad, better or worst.<br /><br />Therefore, you & your classmates are welcome to respond to my writing assignment, in another discussion thread, that you "objectively" -- without citing opinion -- prove that Beethoven was better than Beyonce'.<br /><br />Because most discussions here come down to "because I said so."<br /><br />Guidelines: Provide facts, not opinions. Back up your statements. Points off your score for insulting the person posing the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-47418656070836325932017-09-14T15:38:58.514-04:002017-09-14T15:38:58.514-04:00No, Daniel, your original point was that there is ...No, Daniel, your original point was that there is no objective standard by which music, including sacred music, can be judged. It is there that you part company with nearly all discerning and intelligent people.<br /><br />Your 'Isis' comment was simply a puerile attempt to score a point, which failed because even a far-fetched analogy has to make a credible comparison. Murderous Islamic fanatics, or for that matter fundamentalist Protestant sects, are the last people who would share my enthusiasm for plainchant and Palestrina. What other religious groups do you have in mind?<br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48906851445837178292017-09-14T14:00:17.373-04:002017-09-14T14:00:17.373-04:00ByzRC: "Shane.... come back!"ByzRC: "Shane.... come back!"<br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46405660775938793532017-09-14T13:54:11.839-04:002017-09-14T13:54:11.839-04:00John, I take your point perfectly. We are in total...John, I take your point perfectly. We are in total agreement, you and I. Total understanding. As soon as a female crooner (or an aging hippie) picks up a microphone, you are out the door. Literally, not figuratively.<br /><br />And I will re-state my original point. There are plenty of religious groups that would clap you on the back and praise your rock-solid traditional values. Some of them might even behead the aging hippie for good measure. Literally, not figuratively.<br /><br /><br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90168797798036106712017-09-14T10:23:26.108-04:002017-09-14T10:23:26.108-04:00Typical liberal, John. Twist your words and Shane ...Typical liberal, John. Twist your words and Shane you with non-comparable Hitler references. Total intolerance under the guise of tolerance. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56613029786722020302017-09-14T03:43:54.633-04:002017-09-14T03:43:54.633-04:00The problem with your juvenile attempt to be cleve...The problem with your juvenile attempt to be clever, Mr Bean, is that Adolf Hitler never attempted to conceal his anti-Semitism, Richard Nixon wasn't half the crook that Hillary Clinton is, and I have never said I wasn't a misogynist.<br /><br />The fact that I object to women in the sanctuary might make me a misogynist in some people's eyes, but they would find it difficult to prove that my objection was based on an antipathy to the female sex per se. <br /><br />In any case, I don't care. The opinion of fools isn't worth much, and I have been called worse things.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-56906423659108044642017-09-13T18:39:41.077-04:002017-09-13T18:39:41.077-04:00"I am not a misogynist because I say I am not..."I am not a misogynist because I say I am not misogynist." JN<br /><br />"I am not anti-Semitic because I say I am not anti-Semitic." AH<br /><br />"I am not a crook because I say I am not a crook." RNBeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1971192345783962512017-09-13T17:21:15.797-04:002017-09-13T17:21:15.797-04:00Daniel,
It has possibly escaped your notice that ...Daniel,<br /><br />It has possibly escaped your notice that this particular thread concerned the suitability (or lack thereof) of certain styles of music in the context of liturgical worship. My original comment addressed this. <br /><br />I am not revising my comment, nor should I need to clarify it, since every commentator except you knew what I meant. Using stereotypes (the female crooner with her microphone, the ageing hippy with his guitar) is a literary device, although we have both encountered such stereotypes in the flesh. <br /><br />If you detect misogyny, that's your affair, although it is reading too much into a one-line comment, not to mention taking that comment out of its original context. To infer that it means women should not be allowed to sing amounts to gross misrepresentation and scales the height of silliness - perhaps you might care to revise that inference.<br /><br />I can assure you that I have never written anything that I did not mean. I am, however, used to having my words 'twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools'. You're not the first to do so, and will undoubtedly not be the last.<br /><br />I will revise a comment if corrected on a point of fact. But as soon as a female crooner picks up a microphone, or an ageing hippy picks up a guitar, I am out of the door, literally, not figuratively. That is a fact, and no amount of sanctimonious disapproval can alter it.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-58244588235281625582017-09-13T12:59:44.840-04:002017-09-13T12:59:44.840-04:00Daniel -
Your points are fair. Perhaps given ho...Daniel - <br /><br />Your points are fair. Perhaps given how those of us on the traditional side have been treated and marginalized over a very long period of time, we are defensive - perhaps to a fault. I just want to make it through the rest of my life peacefully, at peace with my faith and at peace with those around me who share this faith. I would prefer not to hide in my own 'tribe' but at the same time, I struggle to accept fully that which I don't recognize as being a reflection of the Church as I understand it to be and what I understand the Council to have intended. <br /><br />As for a body part, I, probably, would represent the eyes of the Church. Here in the northeast, I have been watching a deterioration within the Church that has had an alarming acceleration in recent years. This deterioration is, in part, due to the breakdown of the liturgy that changed attitudes, societal change and population redistribution. The hierarchy seems publicly blind to this other than to keep closing and merging parishes in a seemingly unending quest for 'vibrancy' featuring lots of activities and sports at the expense of that which is central and fundamental - "Do this in memory of me!". I wish they too would open their eyes to the fact that the problems within the Church, though similar to other mainstream churches, have their origins in the liturgy. We will never return to a '50s version of the church and by no means do I advocate this as I live in the present. We should, however, better acknowledge our roots and traditions that evolved over centuries, embracing those traditions as a gift and rejecting a modernist, pop cultural approach which represents a finite period of time. This approach does not seem to be working based on statistics for attendance that are maintained here. Note: While I don't believe girls serving at the altar has caused our problems; to me, it is one of many resultant practices that has evolved over the years that statistically leads to a lack of focus on vocations as well as confusion for young men perhaps considering a vocation. From a micro perspective, I 'get' girls serving however, from a macro perspective, I honestly do not understand what this practice is intended to accomplish. <br /><br />This is good dialogue - good reflection, that might help all to find a more realistic middle ground - one that might help to stave off the decline in the Church and Christianity more broadly. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-53080574692155685852017-09-13T12:07:24.907-04:002017-09-13T12:07:24.907-04:00John, I understand that you are now attempting to,...John, I understand that you are now attempting to, as the politicians say, revise and "clarify" your remarks, but stating that you're out the door "as soon as a female crooner picks up a microphone" is exactly the kind of sweeping generality I speak of.<br /><br />What you wrote is there for all to see (as opposed to what you thought you wrote or what you should have written).<br /><br />If it's not what you meant to say, then think and write more carefully, and you won't be criticized for posting something silly that you didn't mean.<br /><br />Think, write, read, re-think, post. Good rules for anyone who posts on the Net.<br /><br /><br />Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7832793861411134132017-09-13T11:41:13.799-04:002017-09-13T11:41:13.799-04:00Mary's ultimate Fiat. Good one, John.Mary's ultimate Fiat. Good one, John.Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60412371941319325412017-09-13T11:32:37.035-04:002017-09-13T11:32:37.035-04:00Thanks for all your thoughtful criticism. I feel I...Thanks for all your thoughtful criticism. I feel I am just a person with opinions like the rest of you. And I judge people by the comments they choose to make, just as you judge me (which is your right). If you feel you've been judge unfairly, perhaps it's because said comments are often inflammatory, hyper-judgmental, insulting toward broad groups of people & generally condemning anyone who is not, like you, more Catholic than the Pope. I feel that I stand with the vast majority of American Catholics who have weathered changes in the church -- supporting some, skeptical of others -- but don't shop around for a parish or a building or a priest or music that is more to my liking. You may think that dangerously lax or naive, but I think people like us are the backbone of the church. Now you can tell me which body part you represent.Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87944206977163386322017-09-13T11:05:48.512-04:002017-09-13T11:05:48.512-04:00BYzRC
Good comment! Although I wouldn't be su...BYzRC<br /><br />Good comment! Although I wouldn't be surprised if our resident troll thought that Mary's ultimate Fiat was the latest Italian motor-car.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34249435482480455102017-09-12T20:17:18.203-04:002017-09-12T20:17:18.203-04:00Daniel -
While I'm thinking about this I'...Daniel - <br /><br />While I'm thinking about this I'd like to provide, prayerfully, one more suggestion. As a 'service' you have taken the time to post criticisms of others and their families who haven't embraced VII changes or, Haugen/Haas style hymns to your satisfaction. Great. It works for you. You are entitled to your opinion in the same way others here are entitled to theirs. They don't need to be shown where you feel they fall short. I don't want to assume that you've not seen the post three down from this one regarding that beautiful woman and mother who sacrificed herself so that her baby might have what will hopefully be a long, wonderful life. Like Mary, she uttered the ultimate Fiat, or, Yes! Wouldn't it have been more of a service to post there as that family has been shattered albeit for the best of reasons? Something to think about and, please, enough of the following: "Extra outrage points to the dude who's "out the door" anytime a woman picks up a microphone. It's 2017, John. You might be more comfortable in Isis." Please also don't reply with a "I'm never posting here again" take your marbles and run home comment. Learn, change and contribute. <br /><br />I've made my point and will cease posting on this. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87730518156692214522017-09-12T19:21:53.224-04:002017-09-12T19:21:53.224-04:00Daniel, it was a humorous way to bring a mental im...Daniel, it was a humorous way to bring a mental image of a woman, with a microphone, belting out 'Wind Beneath Her Wings' (sleeveless pastel blue shift dress with horn rim glasses). We have women in our schola, one is the leader. No complaints. There is no wind beneath the wings of her ordinary Byrd setting. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28251715737063021682017-09-12T19:09:53.299-04:002017-09-12T19:09:53.299-04:00Daniel
Who says women shouldn't be allowed to...Daniel<br /><br />Who says women shouldn't be allowed to sing? Certainly not me. The London Oratory choir is mixed, and the same applies to Birmingham and Oxford. I have sung in mixed chant groups. <br /><br />Had it been a male crooner picking up a microphone, or an ageing female hippy picking up a guitar, my reaction would have been the same.<br /><br />So far from identifying my statement for what it is, you make up a statement and falsely attribute it to me. This is being deliberately dishonest, since you know full well that my objection is to certain styles of music, not to the sex of the performer.<br /><br />Are you related to a troll who used to post under the name 'gobshite'? He was equally cavalier with the truth. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-61839953332714441622017-09-12T18:56:55.492-04:002017-09-12T18:56:55.492-04:00Daniel,
One other thing, no one requested that yo...Daniel,<br /><br />One other thing, no one requested that you or any other poster provide any unsolicited services. <br /><br />You will never effect a change of heart, save a soul etc. Providing feedback in this way. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81708048365842560072017-09-12T18:42:36.665-04:002017-09-12T18:42:36.665-04:00Daniel,
Don't start that manipulative woe is ...Daniel,<br /><br />Don't start that manipulative woe is me self deprecation. I don't buy it. No one said anything about whether or not you are a good person. We will not likely ever be in a position to draw such a conclusion. Respect is earned, however, by conduct and contribution. Assuming you are still a practicing Catholic, I embrace you as such but, you have yet to give me a reason to provide respect. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13871440837878386472017-09-12T16:27:01.149-04:002017-09-12T16:27:01.149-04:00John Nolan, what sort of intellect would engage wi...John Nolan, what sort of intellect would engage with you on whether women should allowed to sing? That is not an intellectual statement, backed up with logic & factual arguments, but an emotional tantrum by a person who hates what he sees.<br />I do not need to debate that topic, any more than I'd debate whether slavery was a moral practice or the Holocaust a bad idea. I feel I am providing a service simply by identifying your statement for what it is.<br />But thank you for recognizing that I'm not Kavanaugh. He seems like a wonderful fellow, which I obviously am not.Danielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25556894416542538552017-09-12T15:24:46.442-04:002017-09-12T15:24:46.442-04:00Daniel (whoever he is) writes pointless and witles...Daniel (whoever he is) writes pointless and witless drivel. Mozart and Beethoven were recognized in their own lifetimes as composers of outstanding genius; the latter's funeral procession was the largest Vienna had seen in decades.<br /><br />Isis is the name for the river Thames in Oxford. I am certainly comfortable in that city and sing Gregorian chant there. Yes, in 2017 nearly everything I sing is over a thousand years old. I was into pop music in my early teens, but even then would not have wanted it in church. In any case, like St Paul 'Quando factus sum vir, evacuavi quae erant parvuli'.<br /><br />However, I suspect that Daniel is insinuating that in 2017 anyone who does not exalt popular culture is equivalent to a violent Islamist. People like him condemn themselves as ignorant philistines as soon as they open their mouths. <br /><br />He's not Kavanaugh, by the way - he claims to remember the pre-V2 Mass whereas Fr K is too young to do so. Also, his crude and semi-literate style is not the good father's. It does call to mind others who have trolled on this blog and who take exception to my comments but lack the intellect to engage with them constructively. <br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12467510798021483802017-09-12T15:19:10.655-04:002017-09-12T15:19:10.655-04:00Why the outbreak of troll-feeding?Why the outbreak of troll-feeding?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-72639474569675788892017-09-12T15:12:57.230-04:002017-09-12T15:12:57.230-04:00Daniel -
"Smug, snarky, holier-than-thou&qu...Daniel - <br /><br />"Smug, snarky, holier-than-thou" -- does that make me the pot or the kettle?<br /><br />Don't give me that. Generally, you follow the discussion then coming in to tell people why they are wrong and criticize, not debate and defend. Following and criticizing is easy. While everyone everywhere could stand to polish their respective halos, many here take a risk by leading with a response. I'm not going to continue lecturing as I gather you are old enough to know better. Fix your problem. ByzRushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11543580976814745615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35646097805482823482017-09-12T14:30:05.312-04:002017-09-12T14:30:05.312-04:00"Smug, snarky, holier-than-thou" -- does..."Smug, snarky, holier-than-thou" -- does that make me the pot or the kettle?<br /><br />Yes, Byz, I've figured out my problem. I am a hyper-opinionated, judgmental, wise guy. And you all are the members of my support group. The first step is admitting that you have a problem.<br /><br /><br />Danielnoreply@blogger.com