tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2155044766983281395..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: MORE FROM LITURGICALLY CONFLICTED IN MACONFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91465880145270353052015-06-11T12:01:56.756-04:002015-06-11T12:01:56.756-04:00Color Me Trad
I don't see the two 'forms&...Color Me Trad<br /><br />I don't see the two 'forms' as being in conflict; in fact most of the priests I know who celebrate the classic Roman Rite also celebrate the Novus Ordo, in Latin and English. However, there is a clear dichotomy between the two, although they are both valid - the validity of the Roman Rite is not in dispute whereas the validity of the Novus Ordo depends a lot on the preamble to the GIRM which declares that it is in conformity with the Mass as defined at Trent. If one does what the Church intends, that is sufficient, although there is a question as to how many liturgical abuses are allowed before a Mass becomes invalid.<br /><br />The Pauline Missal is very much of its time (the mid-20th century) and the way in which it was fabricated, and the motives of many of its fabricators are now well known. It is severely compromised on many levels; Bugnini himself regarded it as an interim measure leading to a completely inculturated liturgy wherein texts were locally generated and approved, and the further they departed from Roman norms, the better. Rome seems to regard it as more permanent and since 1970 there have been three editions. 'Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia 2002' suggests that its genesis is recent.<br /><br />The Roman Rite (at present in its 1962 edition, but I expect that to change - in particular the Octaves and the pre-1955 Ordo for Holy Week will be restored in 20 to 30 years if not sooner) is part of the current life of the Church and will remain so. <br /><br />In the long run a house built on sand cannot stand. The Novus Ordo will not last a thousand years, possibly not even a hundred. By all means take it on its own terms and celebrate it properly - even attempt to improve it. Try to derive as much spiritual benefit as you can from it. Don't shun it out of principle. But do all you can to support the authentic Rite or TLM. Boys of 10 or 9 need to learn how to serve Mass. Having experienced it they will want to anyway. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16973118158266192872015-06-11T00:21:46.951-04:002015-06-11T00:21:46.951-04:00I know of a 16 year old girl who is joining the Ch...I know of a 16 year old girl who is joining the Church because of the Latin Mass. She does not like the NO Mass and does not want to be that kind of Catholic...Modern. I know a man who didn't join the Church until he found the TLM. He didn't see the difference between the NO Mass and his traditional Methodist service. I was the exact same way as him, except I am kind of a cradle Catholic (raised by non-practicing Catholic mom). I have invited 2 boys, ages 10 and 9, with me to Latin Mass. They loved it much more than their Harvest church that gives donuts at children's church. I have been to the SSPX TLM and blown away by the reverence. Backs are never turned on the altar. Not even in the confession line. No body was snooty or rebellious acting. They were respectful, humble, and there for Christ. <br />People who truly love and respect Christ and His Church, crave Tradition. Still can't figure out why we have to fight for the TLM and be labeled as anything but devout. Innocent kids, and adults who are tired of psuedo worship in Protestant churches both see it clear as day which Mass is gold. <br />And it's not possible to love the forms equally. Not possible. They are battling for a reason. One will win. Many people won't like it, but Christ tells us there will be a Remnant (I pray I am worthy).<br />Jesus is not Joel Osteen. The Mass is not for our egocentric feelings. <br /><br />Color Me Trad<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44241731722473452362015-06-10T17:37:50.873-04:002015-06-10T17:37:50.873-04:00Templar, you bring the wood and I'll bring the...Templar, you bring the wood and I'll bring the matches.Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41017012516792341812015-06-10T14:26:08.175-04:002015-06-10T14:26:08.175-04:00I'm a Traditionalist. I am particularly fond ...I'm a Traditionalist. I am particularly fond of the Old Traditions, like Roasting Heretics and telling them God can't hear their cries for Mercy if they're not said in Latin. LOLTemplarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18204866760862707908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5798669627031350872015-06-09T18:36:03.299-04:002015-06-09T18:36:03.299-04:00Jansenist, my ribs hurt now.
Father, I understand...Jansenist, my ribs hurt now.<br /><br />Father, I understand (a little) that it must be hard knowing one of your flock is, in the eyes of the CC, committing a grave and damnable sin, and I appreciate your concern for my spiritual well being. For what it's worth, you're the kind of pastor one would want and I commend you for that.<br /><br />Dialogue, it goes wayyyyy beyond modernism.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31903187941177811942015-06-09T17:56:39.271-04:002015-06-09T17:56:39.271-04:00Mr. Hobbs, I saw I also read that on the Vatican&#...Mr. Hobbs, I saw I also read that on the Vatican's site, and had a feeling you'd object with it, but rather than anticipate a response I decided I'd wait for it.<br /><br />Without further ado...<br /><br />The problem, naturally, is that it says that the use of the vernacular may be <b>extended</b>, not that Latin is to be abolished in totality. How many parishes actually use <i>any</i> Latin at all?<br /><br />'Some vernacular' does not equal 'no Latin'.<br /><br />(On a side note, the excerpts you and I have posted merely confirm my views about V2 being the <i>Vaguest Council Ever</i> (TM).)<br />___________________________________________________________<br /><br />Dialogue, <br /><br />Of course Rome would say that. So do the Oriental Orthodox, but no one takes them seriously.<br /><br />Now, for this: <i>Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved</i><br /><br />I clearly <b>don't</b> 'know' any such thing about the Catholic Church, or else this conversation wouldn't exist.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39161474824392002015-06-09T17:01:03.711-04:002015-06-09T17:01:03.711-04:00Well, Flavius, since Vat II produced no doctrine n...Well, Flavius, since Vat II produced no doctrine nor anything definitive, I think it is fair to question whether the Holy Ghost guided it…or, if it did, perhaps it was in a manner of judgement on the Church for conceiving the Council in the first place. Maybe the ghost guiding it was the Headless Horseman…if they did a video documentary of Vat II, it would probably look like the Keystone Cops with collars and vestments…little red and purple hats running around. The aftermath has certainly been worthy of some great slapstick...Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-39567172919021237922015-06-09T16:35:36.895-04:002015-06-09T16:35:36.895-04:00FH,
Schism is a damnable offense. Please reconsi...FH,<br /><br />Schism is a damnable offense. Please reconsider your decision. If you are just tired of Modernism, then that's understandable, but not worth losing your soul over. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29068254949759524622015-06-09T16:28:57.957-04:002015-06-09T16:28:57.957-04:00FH, my warning to you is as much for my salvation ...FH, my warning to you is as much for my salvation as yours. I have a responsibility as a priest and your pastor that I will answer for at my personal judgment if I did not tell you the truth!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62659196429784453052015-06-09T16:19:51.772-04:002015-06-09T16:19:51.772-04:00No, Father, it isn't hypocritical to ask someo...No, Father, it isn't hypocritical to ask someone to explain why their opinions don't conflict with documents they supposedly hold as authoritative. <br /><br />Mr. Hobbs has set the perimeters of the discussion, not I. His comments presuppose V2 documents to have authority, and I'm merely working from there. Were we talking about, say, the recitation of the Beatitudes as the third antiphon in the Divine Liturgy, we'd be using a different set of documents, making different presuppositions.<br /><br />As for your first paragraph, I don't believe Rome to be the true Church, nor do I believe the Holy Ghost guided V2. If I did I wouldn't be Orthodox. I've never said I'm 'glad', just that I have no regrets and that I don't have to deal with the <i>Vaguest Council Ever</i> (TM).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63462002785547925402015-06-09T16:16:06.975-04:002015-06-09T16:16:06.975-04:00FH - as I previously noted in my follow-up comment...FH - as I previously noted in my follow-up comment - which possibly might have alleviated your confusion, my comments were intentionally over the top. I was trying to point out to "Diagolue" that his comments were in the first...Bill Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134670944420445567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-26690668551521283022015-06-09T16:10:17.446-04:002015-06-09T16:10:17.446-04:00FH - you may want to quote more than just one poin...FH - you may want to quote more than just one point from Vatican II's Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy which does indeed state: “The use of the Latin language, with due respect to particular law, is to be preserved in the Latin rites” (no. 36 #1). However, it continues... “But since the use of the vernacular, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or in other parts of the liturgy, may frequently be of great advantage to the people, a wider use may be made of it, especially in readings and in some prayers and chants” (#2). And undoubtedly, the fathers of the Council envisaged some use of the vernacular, and left it to be decided after the council - “It is for the competent ecclesiastical authority… to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used. Its decrees have to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See” (#3).Bill Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134670944420445567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-35595643961741051462015-06-09T15:31:11.750-04:002015-06-09T15:31:11.750-04:00Anonymous, when on this blog have I "dismisse...Anonymous, when on this blog have I "dismissed" anyone's degrees? And, acknowledging one's degrees, since one is making theological/doctrinal comments and observations, would seem to be both a good idea and a courtesy.Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30325734699390302602015-06-09T15:00:45.123-04:002015-06-09T15:00:45.123-04:00Father McDonald,
If only poor FH would quote the...Father McDonald, <br /><br />If only poor FH would quote the decree on ecumenism: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained", or Lumen Gentium: "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved".Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54288034547183693802015-06-09T14:46:22.518-04:002015-06-09T14:46:22.518-04:00FH, I thought you were glad to be free of the true...FH, I thought you were glad to be free of the true Church and all the ecumenical councils held under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, even the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council of the Church. Of course saying your are glad to be rid of the true Church, her full communion and her last pastoral Council which has the authority of the Magisterium nonetheless, only compounds your schism and mortal sin.<br /><br />But I find it interesting that you continue to quote Vatican II to another poster here. Seems interesting to me and a bit hypocritical. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82880086007608199022015-06-09T14:45:18.659-04:002015-06-09T14:45:18.659-04:00Bill Hobbs,
When you object to my comment on Mode...Bill Hobbs,<br /><br />When you object to my comment on Modernists by referring to "your presentation of those of us who are progressive", it seems clear enough that you're equating Modernism with progress, especially since I have never criticized progressives. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-84742509217942439622015-06-09T14:25:34.953-04:002015-06-09T14:25:34.953-04:00Many confuse/conflate Modernism and Modernity.
...Many confuse/conflate Modernism and Modernity. <br /><br />Failure to come to terms amiably with modernity leads to decrepitude. Some one or some thing that remains stuck - not rooted but stuck - in the past is going to become more and more irrelevant as the decades and centuries pass.<br /><br />Jansenist, while touting his own credentials, if the first one on this blog to dismiss anyone else's credentials, saying that they aren't worth the vellum they're printed on. But HIS degrees - Oh, now, that's another thing all together - Vandy and Chicago...oooohhh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46777731828003001502015-06-09T14:07:34.651-04:002015-06-09T14:07:34.651-04:00Mr. Hobbs, I'm confused.
You say 'Why can...Mr. Hobbs, I'm confused.<br /><br />You say 'Why can't the traditionalists just admit that they are obsessed with the remnants of the Roman Empire and leave us alone?', but a certain V2 document says 'Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.' You also say , 'they turn it into a theatrical medieval performance.', but a certain document of V2 says, 'The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.'<br /><br />Now, since you have 'done graduate coursework on Vatican II and the documents of the Council', I'm sure you can tell me why what you've written isn't in conflict with the 'documents of V2'.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28527855668440939302015-06-09T12:15:53.335-04:002015-06-09T12:15:53.335-04:00Dialogue,
You're putting words in my mouth - ...Dialogue,<br /><br />You're putting words in my mouth - not an uncommon experience in the comments section. I have done graduate coursework on Vatican II and the documents of the Council, so I am pretty well versed on what they say. If only more people on this site and others would actually read the documents - and more importantly lived them out and put them into practice - we would all be better off - don't you think? Nor do I equate Modernism (which arose out of the Church's fear in the late 19th and the early 20th century to mean that we can't do anything modern... Bill Hobbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10134670944420445567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71738182712934388212015-06-09T10:08:27.934-04:002015-06-09T10:08:27.934-04:00The key phrase here is "in virtue."The key phrase here is "in virtue."Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63179806650719420552015-06-09T08:19:18.897-04:002015-06-09T08:19:18.897-04:00Bill Hobbs,
Modernism is a defined heresy, which ...Bill Hobbs,<br /><br />Modernism is a defined heresy, which Pope Paul VI noted is still alive and well in the age of VCII. If you have somehow come to understand the constitutions and decrees of the Second Vatican Council as promoting Modernism, then I think you have misread those documents. Further, the heresy of Modernism is unrelated to "progress". The Church promotes both social progress and personal progress in virtue. Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32120684142506064202015-06-08T21:35:54.116-04:002015-06-08T21:35:54.116-04:00Good 'ol V2... something I'll never have t...Good 'ol V2... something I'll never have to deal with again... thankfully. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29718062804734309872015-06-08T20:54:24.015-04:002015-06-08T20:54:24.015-04:00Well, Anonymous, some of us do…how about you? I gu...Well, Anonymous, some of us do…how about you? I guess not…is that why you never contribute anything of substance to the blog? Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-17340432040835494062015-06-08T20:12:31.754-04:002015-06-08T20:12:31.754-04:00JJ....I am a little weary of this "some of us...JJ....I am a little weary of this "some of us have graduate degrees in theology and church history and years of pastoral service in protestant denominations." crap.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33499934353194569912015-06-08T19:43:51.479-04:002015-06-08T19:43:51.479-04:00I am a little weary of this "who am I to judg...I am a little weary of this "who am I to judge" crap. Many of us are believing Christians and devout Catholics who understand why we believe what we believe. Some of us have graduate degrees in theology and Church history and years of pastoral service in protestant denominations. We know bad theology and secular humanism when we see it, and we are called by our faith to challenge it and, yes, judge it. If Bill is such a great guy and not a pagan, then he needs to stop using careless theological language and ask himself how he squares his obviously progressivist views with Catholic doctrine. The logic of progressivism is paganism…sorry about that, Bill ol' boy, but that's the haps.Angry Augustinianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558209425377293588noreply@blogger.com