tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post2084458276568534833..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: IF THE NEW AND GLORIOUS APPENDIX FOR THE ORDINARY FORM OF THE MASS WERE HERE TODAY, WHAT WOULD SAINT JOSEPH CHURCH'S 12:10 PM MASS LOOK LIKE THIS SUNDAY?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11857692192616741652015-06-22T14:01:48.551-04:002015-06-22T14:01:48.551-04:00Fr AJM
95% or more of your parishioners don't...Fr AJM<br /><br />95% or more of your parishioners don't want an EF in Latin? (as if there were any alternative). One wonders why you bother to celebrate it. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25260428410669197542015-06-21T12:52:21.141-04:002015-06-21T12:52:21.141-04:00Jan, you are exactly right. The cognitive dissonan...Jan, you are exactly right. The cognitive dissonance that I mentioned is caused by the Novus Ordo priests' not being oriented toward the sacrifice. In most instances, they're more like counselors or wanna be psychologists who run a small business. During the Novus Ordo service, they become sacramental dispensaries who say the words of consecration while the lay people do their readings and singing. <br />Thank God for Traditional priests and their traditional formation. Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23216621315308258872015-06-21T09:56:19.406-04:002015-06-21T09:56:19.406-04:00Lefebvrian, while what you say may be true the thi...Lefebvrian, while what you say may be true the thing is that priests who are trained to say the Ordinary Form of the Mass are trained with the emphasis on the Word rather than on being a sacrificier. Mons Brunero Gheradini has raised these points:<br /><br />“We must however say a few words concerning one aspect of the conciliar aggiornamento. This is particularly important to me because it is a part of the Tridentine tradition and because it is in conformity with the sacramental reality of the priest. It is of him that I wish now to speak.<br /><br />“As much in Lumen gentium 28/1, that says textually: “The priests […] are consecrated to preach the Gospel,” as in Presbyterorum Ordinis 13/2, which voluntarily places the ministry of the Word at the highest place in the priest’s functions, we see a clear modification of the Tridentine tradition, according to which the priest is ‘ad conficiendam eucharistiam.’ He is, of course, destined to other finalities, but all are placed after that of the Eucharistic sacrifice.<br /><br />“But in the Vatican II texts, all that is not in relation to the ministry of the Word becomes secondary, forgetting the condition of the priest as a mystical continuation of Christ, and thus the Christic basis of sacrificer and glorifier of the Father, which reflects on the priest[13] and forms his first characteristic.<br /><br />“Consequently, how can it be coherent to declare that such a radical overturning of the Tridentine tradition is also perfectly coherent with the preceding magisterium, and constitutes the material of infallible, irreformable and dogmatic validity? I candidly admit that I do not understand.” (p. 82-83)"<br /><br />So I think this different emphasis is what makes the difference because I can honestly say I notice a difference between priests trained in seminaries prior to Vatican II. <br /><br />JanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-33223127174924242112015-06-20T10:12:29.939-04:002015-06-20T10:12:29.939-04:00Jan, every man ordained to the priesthood is ordai...Jan, every man ordained to the priesthood is ordained to offer the Traditional Mass -- it is a part of the grace of the Sacrament. The vast majority do not act in accordance with that grace and are, therefore, living in a constant state of cognitive dissonance. That is why the Traditional priests have such a great appreciation for the Mass: it is the Mass that they were made priests to offer. Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5086170615268020572015-06-20T01:03:48.661-04:002015-06-20T01:03:48.661-04:00I have been to the Ordinary Form of the Mass celeb...I have been to the Ordinary Form of the Mass celebrated ad orientam with parts in Latin, parts in English. To be honest, I found it very distracting. I prefer Mass either wholly in Latin or wholly in English. I found myself the opposite to you, Father, wishing that I was at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. It was reverently offered but still lacking - as someone said to me recently the Ordinary Form, while valid, is not feeding the people.<br /><br />I don't think mixing of the languages helps the Mass as I found myself having to mentally switch from one to the other. I know there is Greek in the Latin Mass but that doesn't grate like the English does and vice versa. Then there are the readings by the laity, offertory procession, shaking of hands. Not for me.<br /><br />I hope you get your wish, though, Father, as you have a preference for the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I do believe now that only the priests ordained to the traditional orders have a real appreciation of the Traditional Mass. I think it is too difficult perhaps for priests who have to switch from OF to EF, so I appreciate your difficulty. I imagine as more and more traditional priests are ordained then the priests who offer and prefer the ordinary form can return to solely offer the Ordinary Form. At the same time, we are grateful to these priests for what they have done to help the faithful who have a love for the traditional Latin Mass.<br /><br />Jan <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48600259832074645892015-06-19T14:26:06.692-04:002015-06-19T14:26:06.692-04:00Lefebvrian, I have stated here and at other blogs ...Lefebvrian, I have stated here and at other blogs that while I appreciate Latin as a unifying agent for the celebration of the Mass, especially today with so many ethnic groups and languages in the same parish, I also feel personally that a little Latin goes a long way.<br /><br />I think if no other change happened to the EF Mass, to have some vernacular for the changing parts of the Mass and the Scriptures would help more priests and me to make the EF Mass an every Sunday celebration. But I would say that 95 if not more of my parishioners have no desire for a completely Latin Mass in the EF or OF forms. They love the vernacular plain and simple and find it helps them spiritually. It helps me too. <br /><br />I do not feel that the EF Mass is or was above reform. I am not alone in this as every pope since Pope John XXIII has agreed and the vast majority of priests and laity too. I do disagree with how the OF has been implemented and too many options more so with style of music than anything else. <br /><br />I personally do not like the double communion rites of the EF Mass--the OF Mass is an improvement and when celebrated ad orientem it is much smoother than the EF.<br /><br />While I'm not opposed to what follows the Pater Noster in the EF, I think the OF is just fine and have no quarrels with it as it is. <br /><br />I have no problem with the expanded lectionary. That doesn't mean it is perfect and could not be reformed. I have grown to think that an Old Tesatament and New Testament reading and a long responsorial psalm prior to the Gospel is too much. I like the brevity of the EF's lectionary and I like the Graduals and tracts. But I'm not wedding to its one year cycle. <br /><br />I like actual participation of the laity in the chanted and spoken parts of the Mass and I encourage it with out laity at the EF and have no problem with this kind of renewal for the EF Mass. <br /><br />Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60635639632315922522015-06-19T14:16:31.689-04:002015-06-19T14:16:31.689-04:00It seems like your idea is to have the Traditional...It seems like your idea is to have the Traditional Mass with some parts in the vernacular, but add in the "Universal Prayers of the Faithful" and have the priest sit down more. Also, you would have the "For thine is the kingdom..." thing included. <br /><br />I guess I'd ask, in all seriousness, why not just have the Traditional Mass? And why have you chosen those aspects of the Novus Ordo to include? Why should there be the Universal Prayers when the Roman Canon is used? Why should the "For thine is the kingdom..." have a place? Why should the priest sit more?<br /><br />I'm genuinely curious if you have reasons for these suggestions that you could articulate for us here. Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-15430280413595336862015-06-19T13:45:32.213-04:002015-06-19T13:45:32.213-04:00Credo III doesn't work in English. Credo I doe...Credo III doesn't work in English. Credo I does, but what's the point? The very minimum that is required is that Catholics can sing the Creed and the Pater noster in Latin. The Vatican has been saying this for decades. Why do you have a problem with it?John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-81237065329447837952015-06-19T13:20:46.415-04:002015-06-19T13:20:46.415-04:00Where do the people say the Confiteor in your view...Where do the people say the Confiteor in your view? Would the PATFOTA be said aloud and not overlaid with music? What does that do the Introit? Or, do the people not say it? To not say it would seem to be breach within the OF, though it is not said in B or C to be sure.Vox Cantorishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16987049370515084083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18110504444765318022015-06-19T12:26:27.015-04:002015-06-19T12:26:27.015-04:00Come to think of it, the runout mill was that Bene...Come to think of it, the runout mill was that Benedict XVI was setting the stage for a hybrid Mass. To me, I'd go with this as it would make the Liturgy more dignified, at least on the altar. As for music, cantors are little kings in their fiefdoms. Servimus Unum Deumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12521042317656015840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29379147003691404142015-06-19T11:43:16.616-04:002015-06-19T11:43:16.616-04:00I think we are going to have to live with options,...I think we are going to have to live with options, even of the options of an EF appendix for the OF Mass, for the time being, in order to allow real organic development to occur. Keep in mind too, that with an Ordinary Form Mass as I describe above, there is a great deal of continuity between it and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and this might indeed encourage many priests who are on the fence to start celebrating the EF Mass in their parishes even if in a limited way. The celebration of the EF Mass by more priests and congregations will help in this organic development that might take a decade or two and eventually end up in a new Ordinary Form Missal with no options other than what the Appendix would allow. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44477752472147699672015-06-19T11:11:30.808-04:002015-06-19T11:11:30.808-04:00Respectfully, here's my problem, Father. I agr...Respectfully, here's my problem, Father. I agree many of these changes would be good, or at least an improvement over the way things are now. However, when we pick and choose on so many points like this ("Oh, I like the offertory of the EF and the new Eucharistic Prayers of the OF; I like the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar of the EF, but a quietly prayed "Secret" won't do, so the OF wins there; I like the turning around for the whole "Orate, fratres," so let's keep that; the Mysterium Fidei as an acclamation and the Doxology of the Pater Noster are good, so let's keep doing those, too)—in my humble opinion, when we do that, we really end up with nothing better than what Cardinal Ratzinger called an "on-the-spot product." It may be a more solidly "Catholic product" than the Missal of the Consilium, or more in line with what went before, but it's still a Mass based from beginning to end on preference and what "I" think might be good. In fact, this reminds me, I had a series of posts on my blog a couple years back about "My Ideal Mass Form," and it was very much like this. But I've deleted it since for the reason I give here.<br /><br />What do you think, Father? It just seems like another brand of the same problem we have now, i.e., the over-subjectification of the Liturgy. Whereas Cardinal Ratzinger rightly said something like, "The greatness of the Liturgy depends, in large part, on its non-spontaneity. It is not something I create for myself, but it comes to me through the ages and, ultimately, from Eternity."Michael (Quicumque Vult)http://quicumquevult.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21677943335493140562015-06-19T11:07:32.854-04:002015-06-19T11:07:32.854-04:00They must have a remarkable suidae cosmetics retai...They must have a remarkable suidae cosmetics retailer in Macon. Lefebvriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28367193820932667752015-06-19T10:02:51.700-04:002015-06-19T10:02:51.700-04:00Nothing wrong with that, though I rather think the...Nothing wrong with that, though I rather think the modern "For thine is the Kingdom, Power and Glory, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever" sounds much better :)<br /><br />JoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com