tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1754585946583249410..comments2024-03-18T20:55:55.914-04:00Comments on southern orders: SPEAKING OF REQUIEM MASSES, THIS IS SAINT JOSEPH CHURCH'S LITURGY PLANNING FORM FOR FAMILY MEMBERS PLANNING THE REQUIEMFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76605412347218185882016-02-28T18:29:59.351-05:002016-02-28T18:29:59.351-05:00In fact, no priest is required to celebrate the EF...In fact, no priest is required to celebrate the EF. If there is a stable group who petition it, then the pastor should find someone to celebrate it. I'd like to know how one would accomplish this if there are no priests who can or want to do it. The stable group could the petition the bishop and indicate they will pay air fair or other transportation for an FSSP priest to come, and they will remunerate him. Or some other priest in good standing.<br /><br />I believe the stable group has recourse to the bishop. However, if I don't use the Eucharistic Prayer that the family at a funeral directs me to use, or if I only use the Confiteor and Roman Canon, I don't think they have recourse to the bishop. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-34983073111356027172016-02-28T18:12:59.025-05:002016-02-28T18:12:59.025-05:00Your arguments lead to an interesting conclusion: ...Your arguments lead to an interesting conclusion: There are some things which the Church allows, but in your parish, "...as pastor I have a right to guide the liturgy and choose the options and that this is the nature of the Church and the role of the pastor confirmed by Canon Law, the ultimate law of the Church."<br /><br />So, based on your reasoning, you would agree that if a pastor, guiding the liturgy in his parish, chooses not to offer Mass in the Extraordinary Form, he is entirely within his rights since this is an option commended by the Church, but not required.<br /><br />Remember, you've said that, "...norms and suggestions, even when words like "if possible", "may", "should"..." can be, under the pastoral guidance of a canonically appointed pastor, set aside according to the pastor's preferences.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19702440976848899132016-02-28T11:49:31.602-05:002016-02-28T11:49:31.602-05:00The point about options is than one can opt to do ...The point about options is than one can opt to do something or opt not to do it. Similarly, to allow something is not to prescribe it or even approve of it. The permission for women to serve at the altar was so hedged about with conditions as to suggest that it was a reluctant concession. Nor are EMHC (male or female) to be routinely used or seen as a means of increasing lay participation.<br /><br />Where there are options in the prayers of the Mass it is clear that they are at the choice of the celebrant. That erudite Ordinariate priest Fr Hunwicke dislikes EPs II, III and IV and explains why (see his blog). There is no reason why he should pray them, and this applies to all priests of the Latin rite. If a bishop were to order him to use them, then an appeal to Rome would probably see the bishop overruled.<br /><br />A priest needs no permission to celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin. However, if he is a parish priest and insists on only using Latin (an unlikely scenario) then the bishop would be within his rights in ordering him to say at least some Masses in the vernacular.<br /><br />A priest would not be entitled to insist on Communion kneeling and on the tongue in the OF, if the bishop allows CITH and standing in his diocese. This is because this is an option given to the communicant. (It works both ways.)<br /><br />'When he [the priest] disallows ... what the Church allows, he oversteps.' What exactly does this mean? The Church allows female servers, but a diocese, a parish or even an individual priest is entitled to exclude them. 'You may' has never meant 'you must'.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-38101117978087187952016-02-28T08:35:45.677-05:002016-02-28T08:35:45.677-05:00Also, it is clear in the American adaptation of th...Also, it is clear in the American adaptation of the Roman Missal's GIRM that intinciton for Holy Communion is a legitimate option. It is also clear from the same norms that kneeling for Holy Communion is a legitimate option. Do you allow either when requested? <br /><br />Do you allow the laity to tell you which preface and Eucharistic Prayer you will pray? When during Lent year C or B there is an option for Year A readings, who makes that choice?<br /><br />Who ultimately has the responsibility to select the musical options of the Mass in terms of hymns and settings of the Mass? <br /><br />Can a priest without the bishop's permission pray only the Roman Canon every day if he wishes but especially on Sunday?<br /><br />Can a priest pick which penitential act he wishes or rite of sprinkling and can he exclusively use the Confiteor if he wishes without the bishop's permission?<br /><br />You continue to be highly selective about the priestly options in our liturgical books. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59248840259860170922016-02-28T08:25:32.881-05:002016-02-28T08:25:32.881-05:00I might also add, in terms of your silly strawmen,...I might also add, in terms of your silly strawmen, that our default white vestment for funerals has a black and violet insert or ophry. <br /><br />Are you also promoting by way of your silly liturgical planning logic that I show the family planning the funeral each white, violet or black chasuble we have in our sacristy and let them pick the one they like the best? You really are being silly.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12572164813189198332016-02-28T08:20:57.126-05:002016-02-28T08:20:57.126-05:00It is clear from the rubrics that the priest has t...It is clear from the rubrics that the priest has the right to choose the color of the vestments that are indicated in any Mass. It is not left to the liturgy committee or any special interest to choose this, it is the priest's prerogative given the colors allowed. For our National Day of Prayer for the Protection of the unborn, white or violet may be chosen. The pastor may delegate the choice of the color of the vestments to a lay committee or listen to their request, but certainly it is his prerogative to do either, not the committee's or the lay person requesting.<br /><br />The colors in our funeral book for funeral Masses are white, violet or black. This is for the priest to choose. I have chosen though to allow the family to choose. <br /><br />How many times in the OF Funeral Mass have you ever, and I mean ever, seen either violet or black.<br /><br />I am happy to say that I have had requests for black vestments for funerals for about three of them. <br /><br />You continue to set up silly strawmen!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91570046056348650042016-02-28T08:15:35.729-05:002016-02-28T08:15:35.729-05:00No, there is no mandate that family members partic...No, there is no mandate that family members participate in planning the funeral of a loved one. I never suggested there was.<br /><br />Nor have I ever suggested that a pastor should be prevented from guiding the liturgies of his parish. That is his responsibility.<br /><br />However, when the pastor determines that he is authorized to "guide the liturgies of his parish in the way he deems best," but the way "he deems best" does not embody the guidelines/regulations of the Church, he oversteps.<br /><br />Were a pastor to say, "In guiding the liturgy in my parish as I see best, all funerals will include the use of black vestments," he would be denying to members of his parish what the Church allows. He has no authority to do so. When he disallows, based on his own peculiar preferences, what the Church allows, he oversteps.<br /><br />As pastor, you are not the final word, though in your own mind you have made that your mantra. You are merely - and I used the word advisedly - a cooperator, a co-worker, with your bishop. HE, not you, has the final say. HE, not you, is endowed with the authority to determine the liturgy in your parish. Unless he has delegated to you the authority to disallow what the Church allows , you overstep.<br /><br />When a pastor exercises his "bowden" duty, he will get into trouble. Were he to exercise his bounden duty regarding funerals, he will do what he is obligated to do; he will make available to his parishioners what the Church, not the local pastor, makes available.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85118991878469885852016-02-28T08:11:32.159-05:002016-02-28T08:11:32.159-05:00By the way, it is clear from SP that a Catholic ha...By the way, it is clear from SP that a Catholic has a right to the EF Requiem and Nuptial Liturgy and Mass. But I know of pastors who forbid it. So much for actual mandates being ignored by the progressive wing.<br /><br />I've done a number of EF Weddings and Baptisms but not a EF Requiem yet, but I think our Funeral options and mandates will show the continuity between the two. And I would also offer an option (not in writing but if asked) of an all Latin Ordinary Form, except for the Scriptures, and would not have a problem of eliminating the bidding prayers and Sign of peace as both are technically optional. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71796577431153603592016-02-28T08:06:48.340-05:002016-02-28T08:06:48.340-05:00Are you suggesting that former PI (Pater Ignotus) ...Are you suggesting that former PI (Pater Ignotus) is hiding behind anonymity again? I just can't imagine it.Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85986188152535076522016-02-28T07:52:01.356-05:002016-02-28T07:52:01.356-05:00Fr McDonald
Your critic 'Anonymous', whos...Fr McDonald<br /><br />Your critic 'Anonymous', whose style I recognize, makes some baseless accusations. There are a lot of options for funerals which can in no way be considered 'prescribed rules' and in any case I don't see that you disallow anything that is permitted, or regard family involvement as an intrusion. A form like this can't cover every option.<br /><br />'Funeral Masses at St Joseph Church normally do not have a second reading'. This is because they are weekday Masses, and even papal weekday Masses have only one reading before the Gospel. There may be occasions where more than one family member might want to give a reading, in which case 'pastoral circumstances' allow a second reading.<br /><br />The prohibition of eulogies is made clear in GIRM 382 (At the Funeral Mass there should, as a rule, be a short homily, but never a eulogy of any kind) and in OCF 27. <br /><br />The Propers are part of the Mass and should not be omitted in any case. Also, in this age of options, parishes need to have their own liturgical norms. When my father died in 1998 it fell upon me to organize his funeral in a parish which was not notably conservative. As he had been the headmaster of the Catholic school until he retired, and a member of the Knights of St Columba, there were going to be a lot of parishioners there. The only request he had for his funeral, made verbally many years before, was for the sung Gregorian Ordinary and Propers from the traditional Requiem Mass (including the Dies Irae). I rang around and assembled a small schola to sing these. I chose a couple of hymns which the congregation would know, requested EP I, asked the MC if he would help in distributing Communion (he was an EMHC anyway) but didn't otherwise interfere. Two grandsons did the readings and I did the Bidding Prayers. Two schoolchildren brought up the Offerings.<br /><br />Had he lived another ten years I would have had no difficulty in organizing a sung EF Requiem, and would have had every right to do so. But I don't think it would have been appropriate in that parish setting, and so would not have done it.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57575761569344923952016-02-28T06:21:39.513-05:002016-02-28T06:21:39.513-05:00In your parish, are you allowed the Gradual, Tract...In your parish, are you allowed the Gradual, Tract and Sequence? Are you allowed the Propers? Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60321166248050753412016-02-28T05:36:15.700-05:002016-02-28T05:36:15.700-05:00Let's look at this general norm: "Wheneve...Let's look at this general norm: "Whenever possible the family of the deceased should take part in the selection of texts and music and in the designation of liturgical ministers." (Order of Christian Funerals, Introduction, no 65)<br /><br />No where in this norm does it state: "No matter what, even if impossible, the family must, repeat, must, they are mandated to take part in the selection of texts and music and in the designation of liturgical ministers." <br /><br />Yet, my critic wants to dogmatize that norm as some are want to do with guidelines in order to take away from the pastor his duty to guide the liturgies of his parish in the way he deems best. <br /><br />As it concerns the designation of liturgical ministers, the pastor is the one who appoints lectors and communion ministers and if a family wants to choose from these in my parish they may, but if non practicing Catholics are desired for these roles, the pastor has an obligation to state, no!<br /><br />My critic also seems to fail to acknowledge I've given the family many choices and options. He wants the family liturgy committee to act as these creative committees did in the 1970's, pick and choose and demand whatever they want, from Danny Boy to Kumbaya. These I do not permit as is my right. I'm happy for him to call this clericalism. <br /><br />"If it is the custom of the local community, the pall is then placed on the coffin by family members, friends, or the minister." (OCF no 84)"<br /><br />Who allows for these options to be exercised? The pastor, but check the form again, it asks who will do it, the funeral home or someone else? So the options is there but I don't do it myself or have the altar servers doing it. <br /><br />No, there is not an encouragement of other artifacts being placed on the coffin like bibles or rosaries or flowers or teddy bears. <br /><br />"After the introductory rites, the liturgy of the word is celebrated. Depending upon pastoral circumstances, either one or two readings may be read before the gospel reading." (OCF 165)<br /><br />As pastor, I've made the decision as it my right and bowden duty to eliminate the second reading. Funerals are not solemnities. Feasts, memorials and daily masses don't have a second reading ever. The guideline you quote is for the priest to determine and its in our liturgical books for us to guide the liturgy,not the laity to call the shots. <br /><br />Then you write: "There are many options allowed in the prescribed "Order of Christian Funerals" that seem to be disallowed at St. Joseph Church. That is a pity."<br /><br />You should have written, ultimately, that as pastor i have a right to guide the liturgy and choose the options and that this is the nature of the Church and the role of the pastor confirmed by Canon Law, the ultimate law of the Church. You should have praised me, thank you very much. <br /><br />But no, you make norms and suggestions, even when words like "if possible", "may", "should" and the like are used and turn these into dogmatic statements about the rights of the laity when it comes to the liturgy of the Church. <br /><br />Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7869032157801972862016-02-28T04:58:56.499-05:002016-02-28T04:58:56.499-05:00I see you just can't deal with how the other t...I see you just can't deal with how the other things came about--clericalism, but in the case of altar girls, communion in the hand and women having their feet washed, it was perfectly okay in order to engender a change in the norms. I'm doing nothing different. It is to engender a change in the norms.<br /><br />However, the big thing that you don't seem to understand is that a pastor by canon law which trumps norms which are guidelines and only say (may) or (should) but never (must) can set limits on this, that or the other, especially on how the liturgy is celebrated in terms of style of music, what is chosen when there are options and how things are chosen. In fact a priest may choose not to have altar girls or women having their feet washed and can tell a liturgy committee that he has the final word even a family liturgy committee at the planning of a funeral Mass or a bride and her mother at the planning of a wedding.<br /><br />Your problem is not with me, but with legitimate authority which isn't clericalism, but the rightful exercise of leadership. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-44075845957185339372016-02-27T21:55:11.955-05:002016-02-27T21:55:11.955-05:00Your norms are just that - yours. The only nreve ...Your norms are just that - yours. The only nreve involved is that which you show in jettisoning the Church's guidelines in favor of your own preferences. Clericalism anyone?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16617624039141941302016-02-27T21:06:10.351-05:002016-02-27T21:06:10.351-05:00iPhone auto spell, ugh!iPhone auto spell, ugh!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-2165025155436319502016-02-27T21:05:03.744-05:002016-02-27T21:05:03.744-05:00My funeral norms hit a nerve! Good, very, very goo...My funeral norms hit a nerve! Good, very, very good!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52576587993034331962016-02-27T21:03:03.315-05:002016-02-27T21:03:03.315-05:00Yes, these all came about and were confirmed by di...Yes, these all came about and were confirmed by disregarding the liturgical books as I do for funerals which one day be confirmed!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74928033691652967622016-02-27T21:00:49.838-05:002016-02-27T21:00:49.838-05:00Altar girls, communion in the hand, and washing wo...Altar girls, communion in the hand, and washing women's feet are all perfectly according to the Church's regulations. Therefore, I am fully in support of them. <br /><br />Are you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11029595748472411682016-02-27T20:59:17.711-05:002016-02-27T20:59:17.711-05:00I have two. Ate oriels of friends, how bout you?I have two. Ate oriels of friends, how bout you?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49836767593989307852016-02-27T20:58:06.700-05:002016-02-27T20:58:06.700-05:00And why do you not allow what the Church allow? W...And why do you not allow what the Church allow? Why do you take it upon yourself to deny to faithful Catholics what the Church offers for solace in the time of death? <br /><br />Why do you place your preferences above those of the Church?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-16279681651920417182016-02-27T20:56:55.050-05:002016-02-27T20:56:55.050-05:00I guess you are opposed to altar girls, communion ...I guess you are opposed to altar girls, communion in the hand, washing women's feet at the mandatum, all of which came from disregarding liturgical norms. Was that clericalism?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-74015073976487894422016-02-27T20:55:45.521-05:002016-02-27T20:55:45.521-05:00"Lay" friends? Why the distinction betw..."Lay" friends? Why the distinction between lay and clerical friends? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30629067290315585072016-02-27T20:54:05.964-05:002016-02-27T20:54:05.964-05:00So, how long have quotes from the PRESCRIBED rules...So, how long have quotes from the PRESCRIBED rules for funerals been considered "drivel"? <br /><br />Sounds like rank clericalism to me. Fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25302728077867110212016-02-27T19:42:37.184-05:002016-02-27T19:42:37.184-05:00One of my best lay friends owns a funeral home and...One of my best lay friends owns a funeral home and he allowed me to watch a cremation and the sweep out at the end in to the grinder. They don't wash any thing between uses, so yes stranger John has his bone dust, if you soil, with grandma Mary. Fact!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4643774321459803692016-02-27T16:26:43.959-05:002016-02-27T16:26:43.959-05:00Oh, and what I quote is the Church's own direc...Oh, and what I quote is the Church's own directions, not "drivel."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com