tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1664388133235230065..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE ROOT OF THE LITURGICAL CRISIS ISN'T VATICAN II OR THE REVISED MASS IN ITS ORIGINAL LATIN, BUT RATHER ELITIST LITURGICAL THEOLOGIANS WITH AN AGENDA TO DESTROY THE LATIN ORIGINAL'S "EMPHASIS ON SIN, AND BOWING AND SCRAPING" IN OTHER WORDS INTENTIONALLY DESTROYING THE LITURGICAL REVERENCE OF THE MASS!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75917055450578190732016-06-02T15:30:23.831-04:002016-06-02T15:30:23.831-04:00Pope Jan I,
Keep oinking!!!Pope Jan I,<br /><br />Keep oinking!!!TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21584877485840606242016-06-02T03:23:20.285-04:002016-06-02T03:23:20.285-04:00TJM keep oinking ...
John, the Toronto Blessing -...TJM keep oinking ...<br /><br />John, the Toronto Blessing - you don't want to know - I guess you would call it the ultimate in participation ...<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wZCifteHtcAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28179829603955641212016-06-01T18:35:12.245-04:002016-06-01T18:35:12.245-04:00If there was no server and no men in the congregat...If there was no server and no men in the congregation, it was permissible for a woman to make the responses, kneeling at the altar rail. <br /><br />I confess I haven't heard of the Toronto Blessing with its farmyard noises; it puts me in mind of the Donkey Mass in medieval Beauvais with the following rubric - In fine Missae sacerdos, versus ad populum, vice 'Ite Missa est' ter hinhannabit: populous vero, vice 'Deo Gratias' ter respondebit 'hinham, hinham, hinham'. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14357378576348022962016-06-01T09:11:47.668-04:002016-06-01T09:11:47.668-04:00Annuntio vobis gaudiam magnum; habemus papam: JAN ...Annuntio vobis gaudiam magnum; habemus papam: JAN I<br /><br />you're like a cartoon character, one dimensional. TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-78328671105350745282016-06-01T06:18:31.176-04:002016-06-01T06:18:31.176-04:00TJM, if anyone needs to go to confession it is you...TJM, if anyone needs to go to confession it is yourself for bearing false witness against your neighbor. From your comments, it is easily seen that it is you who needs to grow up but, at your age, it is already far too late, but then perhaps you are already into your second dotage ...<br /><br />Your comments show you to be a typical liberal. When a liberal has no leg to stand on he inevitably falls back on insulting people. Therefore, I correct what I said before. I don't think you should grace the OF Latin Mass at all. Your type is far better off at something like the Toronto Blessing where I believe they yell and bleat and oink ... much more your style.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11674467686255356192016-05-31T09:16:07.668-04:002016-05-31T09:16:07.668-04:00Jan, keep gloriying in your ignorance. The Sung Ma...Jan, keep gloriying in your ignorance. The Sung Mass is the normative Mass of the Roman Rite, the Low Mass enjoys an inferior status. Tolerated but not preferred. You and the young priest are at odds with Church teaching on lay participation in the Mass and it is a sin. Go to confession. Also, grow upTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-73447431398314479842016-05-30T21:33:27.815-04:002016-05-30T21:33:27.815-04:00Actually, John, sorry I made a mistake in my post ...Actually, John, sorry I made a mistake in my post as it was 1958 rather than 1968, so what you say there is of course correct.<br /><br />I agree with you that singing in unison is natural but speaking in unison is not. I know that even at the Ordinary Form Mass I attend the priest has actually asked people to try to answer together and for some not to lag behind. I myself find it difficult at some weekday Ordinary Form Masses where the young people charge through the responses at a rate of knots and it is very difficult to keep up. When that occurs I often don't respond. Young people these days seem to naturally speak a lot faster than previously.<br /><br />At the EF Mass I attend where there is a server if someone new comes along and offers the odd response the priest has actually turned round and looked at them. He has indicated, though, that if there is no server he would be happy for the congregation to respond. He is a young priest and fairly new to the EF Mass so I can imagine that it is easier for him with just a server responding rather than, as you say, people chipping in here and there, lagging behind, etc. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-63411590266108512832016-05-30T21:23:34.639-04:002016-05-30T21:23:34.639-04:00TJM, it has been explained by a number of writers ...TJM, it has been explained by a number of writers that Pius X11 was referring to the sung Mass and not the dialogue Mass. The absolute laugh is when people like yourself, who claim knowledge that they absolutely do not have, put words into the Pope's mouth that he did not speak. A little bit of research will show you where you have gone wrong.<br /><br />Anyway, as I said, I don't know what you're quibbling about because you've got it all in the Latin Ordinary Form of the Mass and so you should be quite happy. You can shout the Latin responses out to your heart's content and impress your neighbors. Also, you don't have to worry about prayers at the foot of the altar or the Last Gospel which concern you for some reason - perhaps you find they lengthen the Mass too much for your taste. But anyway, without them at the Latin OF you can be sure there is nothing to hold you back and you can be one of the first out of the church for your Sunday socialising ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76047468267933914042016-05-30T10:43:00.538-04:002016-05-30T10:43:00.538-04:00Jan, the one trick pony. Ignore the Popes' tea...Jan, the one trick pony. Ignore the Popes' teaching but follow the Magisterium of the Remnant. You and Hans Kung have a lot in common. Thanks for the laugh.TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-23848783357275605782016-05-30T10:28:52.953-04:002016-05-30T10:28:52.953-04:00Jan, by 1968 Inter Oecumenici and Tres Abhinc Anno...Jan, by 1968 Inter Oecumenici and Tres Abhinc Annos had taken effect and Mass (by now exclusively in the vernacular in most places) resembled the Novus Ordo more than it did the Tridentine Rite. So whether dioceses had previously sanctioned the dialogue Mass or not was irrelevant. The vernacular Mass never reserved the responses to the server. <br /><br />Singing in unison is a natural activity; speaking in unison is not. The dialogue Mass requires a large congregation, some of whom are so far distant from the altar as to be unable to hear either celebrant or server, to co-ordinate their responses. The Latin Novus Ordo, with its short introductory rites and use of amplification is easier in this respect, but even here it is noticeable that after the Orate Fratres the congregational Suscipiat tends to fall apart.<br /><br />You mention Brompton Oratory. Low Mass in a side chapel where everything said aloud is audible, is fine. Low Mass at the High Altar, where even half-way down the church nothing would be audible, is also fine. But if the celebrant's words are amplified so that they can be clearly heard even at the back of the church, whereas the server's responses are inaudible (since he is not mic'd), the effect is disconcerting. I noticed this some years ago when they moved the traditional Sunday Low Mass from the Little Oratory to the main church.<br /><br />A dialogue implies that the participants face each other and can easily hear one another. So you are absolutely right in assuming that it would logically lead (as indeed it did) to forward altars and celebration versus populum. A 'Missa Recitata' where the people recite with the celebrant those parts of the Ordinary which pertain to them (i.e. those which they would sing at a High Mass) is less of a problem, but even this is not always practical.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65155305393964928002016-05-30T09:09:09.580-04:002016-05-30T09:09:09.580-04:00John, thanks for your comments. It seems it was d...John, thanks for your comments. It seems it was different in every country. "Building the Modern Church" states that as late as 1968 six dioceses in Britain still prohibited the dialogue Mass. <br /><br />I myself, as I said, love the Missa Cantata but I have a friend in her 80s who is from British Guiana who went to boarding school in the UK for a number of years. Her experience is of the silent Low Mass and accordingly she is not fond of the Missa Cantata or any form of dialogue Mass seeing it as the beginning of the modernisation of the Mass.<br /><br />An interesting commentary from Fr E Black - I think he is of the SSPX:<br /><br />"It is necessary to be clear in one's mind that the Dialogue Mass is a novelty in the history of the Church. Even those who approve of it and feel that it is an improvement on what went before must, in all honesty, admit this for it does nothing for their case to pretend otherwise. It was quite unknown before the 20th century. St Pius X did not envisage Dialogue Mass but rather congregational singing when he advocated ”active participation” ... it was enthusiastically adopted in latter years by bishops and clergy who were very progressive at the time, especially in France and Germany ... The result is that in these places the “silent” Mass on public occasions has passed out of living memory and consequently the average Traditional Catholic there who understandably has little knowledge of liturgical history believes that it has been practiced in every era since the early Church. Paradoxically, or PROVIDENTIALLY, it was not adopted in English-speaking lands as their bishops in the 1940’s and 50’s were generally very conservative <br />and therefore not particularly interested in the Liturgical Movement and its ideas.<br /><br />... Even if it is readily conceded that Dialogue Mass is neither Modernist nor heretical this is not to say that it is desirable. Many practices of the Church in previous centuries were abandoned for good reasons and it is most unwise to revive them now. Even if there was a liturgy in the early Church which approximated to the Dialogue Mass it is well known that there was also Mass in the vernacular, Communion under two kinds and in the hand, Mass sometimes celebrated facing the people and a married priesthood (even the first Pope was <br />married!). None of these practices are in themselves against the Faith and were quite legitimate but recent history has proved what dire consequences have ensued when many of them were revived after the Second Vatican Council. "<br /><br />He concludes: "Let us, therefore, treasure the traditional form of “silent” Low Mass as one of our greatest treasures. This is the form of Mass developed at a high point of Catholic culture and devotion in an era which we love to call “The Age of Faith”. This is the form of Mass <br />which nurtured the spiritual life of the saints who were the greatest of the<br />true reformers of the Church, Saints Francis, Dominic, Bernard, Ignatius, Catherine of Sienna, Teresa of Avila, etc. None of them were dissatisfied with the “silent “Mass, as known by them and us, but rather they loved it and there is no evidence that they felt that they suffered any deprivation from their lack of ”active participation “in the worship of Christ’s Mystical Body. Let us also love and be thankful for this grace and “be zealous for the better gifts” (I Cor.XII.31)"<br /><br />At Christmas a priest in one diocese offering the EF Mass requested it be a dialogue Mass. He also informed people that they could receive communion in the hand standing if they wished and actually offered the EF Mass facing the people due to - he said - a small crib (which could have been easily removed) preventing him from offering ad orientem. <br /><br />I do feel that in those places where they have a dialogue Mass further changes will very soon take place and people will end up with a hybrid Mass and not the EF at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-11630010722397914312016-05-30T05:44:53.028-04:002016-05-30T05:44:53.028-04:00Jan,
Most English parishes in the 1950s could man...Jan,<br /><br />Most English parishes in the 1950s could manage a Missa Cantata on a Sunday, choir or no choir. I remember being taken by my father from the age of about four. I really only encountered the Low Mass when I started serving in 1959, aged eight.<br /><br />Four men psalm-toned the Propers and the congregation sang the Ordinary, supported by the organ (hand-pumped until around 1957!). My favourite piece was Samuel Webbe's 'Vidi Aquam' (the plainchant version was obviously too difficult). I still recall it vividly, although I haven't heard it for fifty-six years.<br /><br />What killed off the sung Mass was the 1965 Ordo with its extensive use of the vernacular, lay readers and no requirement for the celebrant to sing anything. The four-hymn sandwich arrived about this time.<br /><br />I agree that the dialogue Mass never worked. Now at Low Mass I sometimes recite the server's responses sotto voce, and those parts which I would be singing at a sung Mass, including the Propers. At other times I am content to listen. I love the expression 'to hear Mass'. <br />John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25967159996642738692016-05-29T18:31:38.745-04:002016-05-29T18:31:38.745-04:00Here is another view about the dialogue Mass from ...Here is another view about the dialogue Mass from Remnant columnist Brian McColl:<br /><br />"Interested in avoiding unpleasant confrontations at Mass, a growing number of tradition-minded Catholics are actually seeking out non-Dialogue Masses. Several Fraternity of St. Peter priests have, out of pastoral concern, reportedly suspended Dialogue Masses in various locations of late. But as Brian McCall rightly points out, this is not de fide and both sides of the aisle have a right to try to make their case. Still, at the very least the following article should help the pro-Dialogue folks realize that those who remain silent on Sunday morning do so out of carefully considered choice and not an ignorance of the Latin responses. This should decrease the decibel level of the tutorial din rising from the pews, thus bringing distractions to a minimum. At least that is our hope as we go press with this excellent study of the Dialogue Mass MJM.<br /><br />...<br /><br />As the comments of Hans Kung noted above indicate, those originally advocating the Dialogue Mass despised this ancient understanding of the different roles of the laity and the priest. They saw a deficiency in the over 1000-year custom of the Church. The laity were missing out on something. There was too much emphasis on the priest (the office that all the Protestant varieties would abolish in reality if not in name). This thinking even creeps in to the Instruction. There is something incomplete, they argued, in a mute congregation. It obscures the nature of the Mass as an act of the community. The people are not involved. <br /><br />The error in this line of reasoning is that the Mass is not a community event like a cookout or town meeting. The perfect sacrifice of Christ to His Father needs no “participation” of the laity to become perfect. It is perfect in and of itself and even in the absence of any congregation (a Mass with a lone priest). The laity are present for their own edification and spiritual nourishment, not to effect the action at the altar. They come not to add to or perfect the sacred action but to receive its benefits. This is the reason for the necessary interior disposition – it disposes the soul to receive graces.<br /><br />A Dialogue Mass can easily be seen as a community event. Priest speaks, people respond. Once accepted, the liturgical liberals more easily argue for turning the priest himself around. Should he not face the people he is talking with? I am not stating that versus populum Masses are the inevitable result of a Dialogue Mass. Yet, the two ideas spring from a common vision of the nature of the Mass as a communal experience.<br />...<br /><br /> I will attempt to draw a few conclusions from this discussion. First, as sated at the outset the Dialogue Mass is an option (or more precisely a list of various options) since 1958 officially permitted by the Church. The issue is thus not one of condemning communities who are making use of or abstaining from use of the options. The question is rather, should this experiment (for given its novelty in the liturgical history of the Church that is what it is) be continued in the revival of the Roman Rite or left to one side like many other customs and experiments over the years as not desirable as a permanent part of the Rite. I have argued that certainly for a Low Mass, the practice distorts and obscures important delineations between clerical and lay offices. It discourages the quiet interior disposition of the laity as they join their mind and soul to the sacrifice of Christ. It makes it difficult for individuals to make use of other means of contemplation as they are interrupted by the congregational responses. Someone wishing to focus his spiritual faculties on the words of the Mass is free to do so by internally speaking the words of response in his heart. By doing so, this leaves the person sitting next to him free to use other methods of interior preparation and contemplation."<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-21161835790126442952016-05-29T18:27:58.445-04:002016-05-29T18:27:58.445-04:00John Nolan, no, I am definitely not singing from t...John Nolan, no, I am definitely not singing from the same hymn sheet as TJM. His views on the Traditional Mass do not fit in with the mainstream views, in my experience, of people attending the Latin Mass. And I see he has not answered as to whether he is newly come to the traditional Mass. I suspect he is. Those of us who never embraced the OF of the Mass, although not joining the SSPX, have remained true to the Mass of Ages without the suggested changes that TJM would like. <br /><br />I have nothing against a sung Mass - in fact I love it. What I object to is TJM's view expressed above about the fact of the Low Mass, "my grandmother's parish was the "deaf, dumb, and blind" variation where the parishioners sang or said nothing". The silent Low Mass is equally as beautiful as the sung Mass but I suspect there are some who have lost the art of contemplation and these days people don't know what to do with silence. TJM, for all his age, appears to fit into that category. <br /><br />While the sung Mass may be the norm it is very rare to have it in a parish church unless there is a choir. I don't remember ever having attended a sung Mass in my youth except at the local cathedral, and that would be the normal situation in most parishes. I can say that, unless there is a choir, the sung Mass can sound an absolute disaster and should not be attempted for the sake of this false idea of "we must be participating" which has been debunked by many writing in support of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass - another reason for TJM to attend the OF Mass.<br /><br />John I don't know how long you have been involved in seeking the restoration of the traditional Mass, but I can say that I and others who have been involved for many years were delighted when the Motu Proprio was finally given. However, I am dismayed at the few, like TJM, now seeking to reform the Mass. TJM would like to do away with the Last Gospel and prayers at the foot of the altar. I can assure you that TJM does not represent the mainstream of people who love and attend the traditional Mass. As you are in England I am sure you will be aware of that. There is no dialogue Mass at the Brompton Oratory and I saw a comment that if you make a response "they snottily glare at you". I have read that many of the FSSP parishes have done away with the dialogue Mass in the US. I have never attended one dialogue Mass and would avoid it like the plague.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-77830388275016914862016-05-29T17:21:39.734-04:002016-05-29T17:21:39.734-04:00John Nolan,
Having read extensively about St.Joh...John Nolan, <br /><br />Having read extensively about St.John XXIII,I agree he would have quashed Sacrosanctum Concilium. Simpleton liberals appear to not know that John XXIII penned Veterum Sapientia, which reinforced the use of Latin in the Church on the very eve of the Council. He said that Latin was the language which joined the Church of today. Liberals following his death, conveniently co-opted John XXIII to give cover to their evil actions. There is a special place in Hell for them! TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27287051045509696262016-05-29T13:31:50.007-04:002016-05-29T13:31:50.007-04:00I suspect that Jan and TJM are singing from the sa...I suspect that Jan and TJM are singing from the same hymn sheet. I think that where Jan goes wrong is that he/she assumes that because SP specifies the 1962 Missal then this must be somehow definitive. While it is true that a Catholic from any century of the second millennium would find 1962 reassuringly familiar (and by the same token would find Mass as celebrated in most places by 1970 completely alien) the liturgy had even by then undergone considerable changes, most of them in the 20th century due to the interference of Pius X and Pius XII.<br /><br />The Sarum Use does not have a Last Gospel said at the altar; the Dominican Use originally did not have it, but reluctantly agreed to adopt it after pressure from Rome. Pius V's Missal of 1570 is not the be-all-and-end-all either, since he explicitly allowed that rites of 200 years or older could continue. His main aim was to ensure that the heretical 'liturgies' of the Protestant reformers should not be recognized as valid.<br /><br />I suspect that the original Ordo of Holy Week will be restored in the EF before too long. The Bugnini-influenced 1955 Ordo is highly unsatisfactory, yet Pius XII was prepared to sign it off. We know that Cardinal Roncalli (later Pope John XXIII) didn't like it. Mind you, I very much doubt that had he lived he would have agreed to Sacrosanctum Concilium, still less have used it as a pretext for dismantling the Roman Rite and replacing it with something completely different. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-57600288750211795562016-05-29T12:18:33.198-04:002016-05-29T12:18:33.198-04:00Jan,
You really are a one trick pony, and apperen...Jan,<br /><br />You really are a one trick pony, and apperently revel in your ignorance. The normative Mass in the Roman Rite is the sung Mass, the low Mass should be offered only when it is not possible to sing the Mass. I doubt you've read Mediator Dei, and if you have, you clearly don't understand it. Please go to confession and confess your sinful attitude towards St. Pius X and Pius XIITJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-49699980539137940962016-05-29T09:22:17.327-04:002016-05-29T09:22:17.327-04:00Flavius, Yes, I think it comes from being educated...Flavius, Yes, I think it comes from being educated by the nuns. They did a lot of finger waving (usually prefaced by "There's no will you/won't you about it") and obviously some of it rubbed off!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-7249117324627245582016-05-28T23:47:48.267-04:002016-05-28T23:47:48.267-04:00Jan,
You really enjoy wagging your finger, don...Jan,<br /><br />You really enjoy wagging your finger, don't you?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00554830859411216515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37211654840546714852016-05-28T21:22:56.181-04:002016-05-28T21:22:56.181-04:00For those younger people now attending the Extraor...For those younger people now attending the Extraordinary Form of the Mass I suggest that in the interests of preserving the Mass they join one of the bodies affiliated to Una Voce International:<br /><br />"A Role of Service to the Church<br /><br />“The International Una Voce Federation has played an important role in supporting the use of the 1962 edition of the Roman Missal in obedience to the directives of the Holy See. For this valuable service I express my gratitude to the members of the Federation and extend my blessing.”<br /><br />Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, speaking to the Una Voce Federation, 25 July 1996<br /><br />Una Voce (from the Preface of the Most Holy Trinity – with one voice) is an international federation of associations, founded in 1966 in Rome, that now includes national associations in 17 nations on every continent. It is dedicated to ensuring that the Roman Mass codified by St. Pius V is maintained as one of the forms of eucharistic worship which are honored in universal liturgical life, and to restoring the use of Latin, Gregorian Chant, and sacred polyphony in Catholic liturgy. The Una Voce International website provides information about officers and national associations: www.ifuv.org"<br /><br />There is a list of member organisations in different countries throughout the world.<br /><br />For the US - Una Voce America: http://unavoce.org/<br /><br />For the UK - the Latin Mass Society: http://www.lms.org.uk/<br /><br />The rest of the world organizations listed here: http://www.fiuv.org/p/worldwide-member-associations.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-54228457566295603072016-05-28T20:36:33.343-04:002016-05-28T20:36:33.343-04:00TJM, if you check your facts you will find that Pi...TJM, if you check your facts you will find that Pius XII was referring to the Missa Cantata not to the low Mass. You referred to the low Mass in derogatory terms in your grandmother's parish. Might I add that the majority of parishes did not have a Missa Cantata because they didn't have a choir so had the low form of Mass which you don't like. The dialogue Mass was the first of the innovations introduced that led to all the other innovations.<br /><br />It seems to me that maybe, due to being an altar server, you became used to responding to the Mass and obviously don't like being in a congregation where you have to silently read from the missal at the low Mass. Perhaps, like Fr Cerota mentions, you do like the sound of your own voice. You like everyone to know that you can read Latin - as many of us can but we don't feel the need to show off.<br /><br />In your comments also about the last Gospel being superfluous you show that you are indeed an innovator. You have the Latin Mass as you want it in the Ordinary form at St John Cantius, no prayers at the foot of the altar and no last gospel, so why are you going about trying to modernize the 1962 missal for? People like Michael Davies speak authoritatively from years of studying the Mass when they say that the missal of 1965 was a failure. <br /><br />The Extraordinary Form of the Mass developed over centuries until 1965 when people like you, by accepting and looking for novelties, really caused the demise of the Mass. Despite being an altar server all those years ago, no doubt, you are only a recent attender of the EF of the Mass and bring with you the novelties of the Novus Ordo.<br /><br />My advice to you is to stick to the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin as you are out of step with the vast majority of people who love the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. I suggest to you that, if you take a look at the position papers of the International Federation Una Voce, who have worked assiduously for the restoration of the Mass since 1967, and who form a very large body of people who work in many country for the preservation of the EF Mass, you will find that the removal of the Last Gospel and prayers at the foot of the altar is not what they advocate nor do they advocate a dialogue Mass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-76197429053493204372016-05-28T20:11:19.139-04:002016-05-28T20:11:19.139-04:00Given that the sung Mass is the norm, it is not un...Given that the sung Mass is the norm, it is not unreasonable for the congregation to recite, at Low Mass, what they would normally sing. This would not include the PATFOTA, the Deo gratias after the epistle, the Laus tibi Christe after the gospel, and the response to the Orate Fratres. It would however include the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei, plus those responses which are sung.<br /><br />I would not suggest that this be done at every Low Mass, but where it were to occur it would not cause the heavens to fall or usher in the Bugnini Ordo by the back door. <br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69361574455313091772016-05-28T10:56:49.634-04:002016-05-28T10:56:49.634-04:00Jan, so you continue in your pride to ignore the t...Jan, so you continue in your pride to ignore the teachings on participation in the Mass by a Saint, Saint Pius X,and a reputed Saint, Pius XII. But a mere priest, Father Cerota, you slobber all over because he supports your misguided ideology. You seem to glory in your ignorance and contumaciousness. You need to go to Confession, pronto, to confess your defiance of St. Piux X and Pius XII teachings, otherwise, YOU would be better served going to an Anglican Church where you can pick and choose what you believe and still remain Anglican TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-5250375332401627722016-05-28T04:19:18.541-04:002016-05-28T04:19:18.541-04:00Yes, Marc, and Michael Davies has a great article ...Yes, Marc, and Michael Davies has a great article which demonstrates the changes in 1965 were the beginning of the intended reform:<br /><br /> "No layman could help noticing the changes made to the Ordinary of the Mass in the 1965 Missal, and there can be little doubt that its purpose was to prepare the faithful for the revolutionary changes that were to be introduced in 1969. By design or by coincidence the preparation for this revolution followed precisely the strategy of Thomas Cranmer, the apostate Archbishop of Canterbury, prior to the imposition of his English Communion Service of 1549.15 One of the principal features of the Catholic liturgy had been stability. Developments in the manner in which Mass was celebrated did occur, but they crept in almost imperceptibly over the centuries, and the Missals in use in England and throughout Europe in the sixteenth century had remained unchanged for at least several hundred years. The faithful took it for granted that whatever else might change, the Mass could not."<br /><br />http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_sp_davies.html<br /><br />We have a lot to be grateful for to men like Michael Davies for their astute vision where the Mass concerned. There is no doubt that the Catholic Church was rocked by the changes to the Mass which was such a rock in their lives. The Church has never recovered from this disastrous attempt to "update" the liturgy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-36518355370322482882016-05-28T04:12:08.248-04:002016-05-28T04:12:08.248-04:00Fr Cerota also has an excellent article against th...Fr Cerota also has an excellent article against the dialogue Mass:<br /><br /><br />"As a priest who has been offering the Holy Latin Mass for 7 years now, I am absolutely against the “Dialogue Latin Mass” for the Low Latin Mass.<br /><br />Again, because of the false understanding of the idea of “Active Participation” of the laity, we do not need to be answering out loud to be praying. Active Participation is an interior participation of placing our hearts, minds and bodies at the disposition of adoring God. This does not need to be vocal.<br /><br />In the Missa Cantata or High Mass, the choir sings the introit, the graduale, the antiphons, and some of the responses. This is different, because it is sung in harmony with the loftiness of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. If people want to sing along with the choir and are not making a show of themselves, then this is fine.<br /><br />Ask any priest who really loves God and does not want to be a show off, which Holy Mass is better, dialogue or silent Mass. I would assume that the silent Latin Mass, with only the Altar Boy answering, would be the answer.<br /><br />For me, having done both the Dialogue Mass and the Silent Low Mass, it is by far more contemplative having the silent low mass. The Dialogue Mass is jarring with all the people shouting our the Latin responses.<br /><br />I spent years going on retreats at the Camaldolese Hermitage in Big Sur California. There is where I learned the value of silent contemplative prayer.<br /><br />I beg all of you to study what is true prayer. The highest form of prayer is silent interior contemplative prayer. Exterior and active prayer is good, but it is for Catholics who are just beginning on their spiritual journey.<br /><br />Yes, everyone who comes from the Novus Ordo Active show mass, love being able to respond and be heard by everyone. Humans love to be the center of the show, including the Holy Mass."<br /><br />Good on Fr Cerota. I can state that I have been to many Extraordinary Form Masses and never there ever been a dialogue Mass except on the very rare occasion when a server wasn't able to be present. <br /><br />People like TJM who prefer a Dialogue Mass and no last gospel should really be attending the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin rather than trying to reform what people like Michael Davies have fought so long and hard to restore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com