tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1424201933999691059..comments2024-03-28T01:50:39.781-04:00Comments on southern orders: OH FOR THE THRILL OF VICTORY AND THE AGONY OF THEE FEET! IT'S THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL TIME OF YEAR AGAIN!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-13007259253533327792015-03-16T12:41:04.874-04:002015-03-16T12:41:04.874-04:00Isn't this the "straw man" fallacy.Isn't this the "straw man" fallacy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90675983503203524112015-03-16T10:01:16.511-04:002015-03-16T10:01:16.511-04:00Nicely said, Joe Potillor!Nicely said, Joe Potillor!Rood Screenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09816036539243214384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69123035115868978362015-03-15T22:48:41.718-04:002015-03-15T22:48:41.718-04:00It takes a certain arrogance to place oneself abov...It takes a certain arrogance to place oneself above the Liturgical law of the Church. I'm rather sick of hearing justification about *insert abuse here* this time Mandatumgate III<br /><br />A solution to this so called "problem" could be what my priest friend in Africa does. He selects men for the foot-washing (as called for by the rubrics) but extends the invitation for families to do this outside of the liturgical context after the Liturgy is over, or at their homes. <br /><br />No, because the Pope places himself above the laws of the Church, does not give an ordinary priest or Bishop that power to ignore the rubrics of the Church. <br /><br />Arguably the bigger scandal isn't Mandatumgate III, but rather the celebration of the Institution of the Holy Eucharist and the Priesthood outside of the Cathedral Church of the diocese...Almost feel for the Roman people without their Bishop. <br /><br />I happen to agree, that the foot-washing should be moved to it's pre-55 version of being outside of the Liturgy. Foot-washing, fine, just follow the rubrics of the Church. Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46874598464986504822015-03-14T17:36:13.343-04:002015-03-14T17:36:13.343-04:00Henry and John Nolan,
Thank you both for your expl...Henry and John Nolan,<br />Thank you both for your explanations. Now I understand.<br /><br />Have a blessed Laetare Sunday. God bless.Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00003965922434128196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22005271923715090172015-03-14T16:02:11.889-04:002015-03-14T16:02:11.889-04:00Finally, John, with the sentiment of your last com...Finally, John, with the sentiment of your last comment I am in full agreement. It is the current (and, in my view, unfortunate) post-1955 placement of the foot-washing ceremony in a non-traditional liturgical context--for which, as you say, Bugnini was responsible--that generates the present confusion. (Would that this were the only confusion that the innovations of Bugnini and his crowd had generated.}Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-48029063100911659402015-03-14T14:36:59.333-04:002015-03-14T14:36:59.333-04:00You are quite correct that I am ignoring everythin...You are quite correct that I am ignoring everything from the 1955 rubrics onwards concerning this ceremony. When it was placed in the context of the Maundy Thursday Mass, which recalls the institution of both the Eucharist and the priesthood, it acquired a (to my mind spurious) liturgical significance not warranted by its long tradition. This reached its apogee in 2003 when JP II in a sermon conflated it with the Eucharist itself.<br /><br />'Viri selecti' does not convey the sense of 'pauperes' - indeed it conveys quite the opposite, and this is reinforced by the photographs of obviously well-off business-suited men. And although popes traditionally washed the feet of subdeacons they also washed the feet of the poor. To sanitize or clericalize the ceremony and impose on it layers of legal positivism lessens its traditional significance and obscures its meaning. But this is the direct consequence of setting an essentially non-liturgical custom in the context of a liturgical rite.<br /><br />I'm to some extent playing devil's advocate here, but also making a stand for tradition. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /> John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-42283101629075813132015-03-14T12:38:06.850-04:002015-03-14T12:38:06.850-04:00Marie,
John Nolan is (of course) correct in his r...Marie,<br /><br />John Nolan is (of course) correct in his reference to the <i>Caeremoniale episcoporum</i> which provides for a bishop washing the feet of thirteen poor people. This occurred (prior to 1955) outside of Mass. As a non-liturgical action, there was nothing wrong with, for instance, an abbess washing the feet of her nuns, or monks washing the feet of poor men and women or children ( or perhaps a lay teacher washing the feet of children in a CCD class).<br /><br />The current liturgical law which I cite applies only to a foot-washing carried out in the context of Holy Mass (which did not occur prior to 1955). Then (as I understand it) the <i>Caeremoniale episcoporum</i> conditions for extra-liturgical foot washing do not apply, but instead the more specific rubric of the current 2002 Missale Romanum governs the action. <br /><br />Of course, one can always discuss what exceptions to liturgical law are permissible. I myself see no problem with a pope or any bishop making a prudential decision to ignore this law on a pastoral occasion he deems appropriate. Such prudential decisions seem proper to the role of a pope or bishop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-43962134059896808662015-03-14T10:58:08.553-04:002015-03-14T10:58:08.553-04:00John Nolan,
Am I correct in the impression that y...John Nolan,<br /><br />Am I correct in the impression that your 9:12 pm 3/13/2015 comment ignores the 1988 instruction Paschales Solemnitatis from the Congregation for Divine Worship (the competent dicastery in this regard), and also the 2002 Missale Romanum rubric (which constitutes liturgical law), which I quoted in my 4:08 pm 3/13/2015 comment, and both of which use the gender-specific Latin term <i>viri selecti</i> ("chosen men")?<br /><br />That said, I also am not overly concerned when the pope makes a prudential decision to ignore this liturgical law on a particular occasion, in which the exception may well be justified. In any event, he has the power to do this, in at least the sense that canon law provides no means by which he might be called to account.<br /><br />The mistake is to assume that his prudential exception provides authorization for priests in general to violate the law which remains in full effect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-820648932128216232015-03-14T07:46:02.231-04:002015-03-14T07:46:02.231-04:00John Nolan,
Thank you for your post. You might be...John Nolan,<br />Thank you for your post. You might be correct, but I do remember reading it in Fr. Z's blog that the washing of feet on Maundy Thursday has something to do with the call to the priesthood.<br /><br />On the other hand, I also remember reading from a Thomas Merton book that in the monastery where he was at, the monks washed the feet of farming folks and press on their palms a silver dollar each.<br /><br />Thanks. With you explanation, I'm feeling better about the Pope's washing of feet of prisoners. The first time he did that as a new Pope, I was outraged and heartbroken. Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00003965922434128196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-79655078417878144142015-03-14T00:31:24.033-04:002015-03-14T00:31:24.033-04:00I always feel bad for 'W'; it gets forgott...I always feel bad for 'W'; it gets forgotten every time. Of course I mean that, as Barbra Walters might say, "facetiouswy" rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-85181498201241432182015-03-13T21:12:36.364-04:002015-03-13T21:12:36.364-04:00The washing of feet is not connected to the priest...The washing of feet is not connected to the priesthood; nor are those having their feet washed substituting for clerics. I think the confusion arose after Bugnini plonked this ceremony into the middle of the Missa in Cena Domini as part of the misguided 1955 'reform'. Before then the ceremony was performed at a convenient hour after the stripping of the altars.<br /><br />The ritual is in the Caeremoniale Episcoporum. The prelate may wash the feet of clerics (canonici) but the clear preference was for him to wash the feet of thirteen poor people (pauperes) and give them alms. The Latin is not gender-specific; to make it so one would have to say 'viri pauperes' (poor men) or 'mulieres pauperes' (poor women).<br /><br />In practice one supposes that poor men would have been chosen, but nowhere is the word 'vir' used. The accusative singular when it appears is simply 'pauperem'. <br /><br />One should also remember that it was the common practice of European royalty to wash the feet of the poor, a custom which persisted in some places (e.g. Austria-Hungary) into the 20th century. There is a vestige of this in the English 'Royal Maundy' where the Queen distributes symbolic alms in the form of special coins (Maundy money).<br /><br />So if Pope Francis violates Bugnini's rubrics (in common with many bishops and priests) I'm not that concerned, although I'd rather it were kept out of the sanctuary. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65089649196108237512015-03-13T18:28:06.887-04:002015-03-13T18:28:06.887-04:00Facetiously - Now that's ALL the vowels.
Ther...Facetiously - Now that's ALL the vowels.<br /><br />There's another English word with all the vowels in order. Who knows it? NO GOOGLING!Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-32025546340550699882015-03-13T16:22:47.512-04:002015-03-13T16:22:47.512-04:00I thought that the washing of feet had something t...I thought that the washing of feet had something to do with the call to the priesthood? <br /><br /> I agree with Henry saying,"If no clerics are available, then lay men substitute for them, just as lay men substitute in the clerical role of altar servers when clerics are not available."<br /><br />[In the old days, the washing of the feet on Holy Thursday was done outside of the Mass.}<br /><br />I also think washing of the feet should be moved to the Chrism Mass with the bishop and all his priests, instead of the Mass of the Lord's Supper of the parish.<br /><br />My two centavos. <br />Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00003965922434128196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24830958394802067522015-03-13T16:08:11.287-04:002015-03-13T16:08:11.287-04:00John Nolan: "Traddies laying down the liturgi...John Nolan: "Traddies laying down the liturgical law . . ."<br /><br />Hmm . . . Evidently you are under the impression that "traddies" wrote the following statements:<br /><br />“The washing of the feet of <b>chosen men</b> which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came ‘not to be served, but to serve’ (Matt XX: 28). This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.” CDW, Paschales Solemnitatis (16 ian 1988), n. 51.<br /><br />“Lotio pedum …11. <b>Viri selecti</b> deducuntur a ministris ad sedilia loco apto parata. Tunc sacerdos … accedit ad singulos, eisque fundit aquam super pedes et abstergit …” (Mass of the Lord's Supper, Roman Missal 2002). <br /><br />"Therefore, if someone is washing the feet of any females (or, it seems, even of males under 18, per 1983 CIC 97), he is in violation of the Holy Thursday rubrics."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31692567131936990762015-03-13T14:26:01.033-04:002015-03-13T14:26:01.033-04:00It's only been included in the Mass since 1955...It's only been included in the Mass since 1955. I am not aware it is a sacramental. Sacramentals have an effect. What effect does this have on those whose feet are washed and are presumably chosen at random? Nor was it necessarily performed by a cleric; Queen Mary Tudor washed the feet of twelve poor women. In convents the Superior washed the feet of the nuns.<br /><br />Ironic, isn't it? Traddies laying down the liturgical law about something that isn't liturgical in the first place. Pope Francis can wash the paws of twelve dogs if he wants to and I, for one, would be completely unperturbed.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-64683232073428869992015-03-13T14:06:30.661-04:002015-03-13T14:06:30.661-04:00I wince whenever I see a row of men (or women) sta...I wince whenever I see a row of men (or women) standing or sitting inside the sanctuary with their backs to the altar.<br /><br />In my present parish, the 12 men (only) sit to have their feet washed in chairs placed before Mass, 6 behind one another on either side of the main aisle, and the priest comes out of the sanctuary for the foot-washing. (Then on Good Friday 14 women assist at Stations of the Cross.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-51733366478273600592015-03-13T13:55:39.911-04:002015-03-13T13:55:39.911-04:00In traditional parishes ( like the one I attend) t...In traditional parishes ( like the one I attend) there are always 11 men and a teenage boy who represents St JohnJacobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30434466720668828022015-03-13T13:26:42.282-04:002015-03-13T13:26:42.282-04:00Darn auto check! UGLY feet too!Darn auto check! UGLY feet too!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75624109373047084912015-03-13T13:25:38.967-04:002015-03-13T13:25:38.967-04:00Spell check did not serve me well in this instance...Spell check did not serve me well in this instance, but rich folks have gilt feet as well!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28490706079095903642015-03-13T13:22:44.205-04:002015-03-13T13:22:44.205-04:00Just sayin'...looks a bit like a shot at old p...Just sayin'...looks a bit like a shot at old people, poor people, neglected people....not good targets for pastoral facetiousness. (I don't think your spell-check is working too well.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-22923268150586716242015-03-13T13:10:01.291-04:002015-03-13T13:10:01.291-04:00Father--for future reference remember facetious is...Father--for future reference remember facetious is a word that contains ALL the vowels IN ORDER, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60648546030415281222015-03-13T12:09:43.462-04:002015-03-13T12:09:43.462-04:00A lack of a sense of humor is a terrible thing as ...A lack of a sense of humor is a terrible thing as well as an inability to detect when one is being faticeos!😁Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90045824570985376272015-03-13T12:01:13.131-04:002015-03-13T12:01:13.131-04:00Fr. McD, If I lived in Macon and if I were a membe...Fr. McD, If I lived in Macon and if I were a member of your parish (two very big "ifs") and read your snide remark about the top photo being "typical of my parishioner's feet" (You have only one parishioner?), I would hie forthwith to Holy Spirit.<br /><br />A rather crude and insensitive joke, in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-40363517048061727092015-03-13T10:05:11.626-04:002015-03-13T10:05:11.626-04:00It is an act of charity on the part of my parishio...It is an act of charity on the part of my parishioners not to expose this sort of thing to me! Your parishioners, former PI, must not be as charitable as mine!Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-1770902837940162222015-03-13T10:03:26.483-04:002015-03-13T10:03:26.483-04:00The top photo is typical of my parishioner's f...The top photo is typical of my parishioner's feet. Who wants to expose these kind of feet to the public let alone this lowly priest?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.com