tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post12119401336351925..comments2024-03-28T05:17:04.006-04:00Comments on southern orders: THE CRISIS OF FAITH AND STANDING FOR HOLY COMMUNIONFr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-75403896725139366882012-12-02T11:51:32.464-05:002012-12-02T11:51:32.464-05:00Genuflexion (going down on one knee) came quite la...Genuflexion (going down on one knee) came quite late into the liturgy. It was associated with the feudal act of homage and therefore had secular connotations. Prostration is actually more traditional. In the Sarum Use the priest doesn't genuflect at all. Most churches I attend have altar rails and kneeling for Communion (and no EMs) and I have noticed fewer people holding their hands out compared with twenty years ago.<br /><br />On the other hand I saw a couple of people at the Birmingham Oratory (EF Solemn) adopting the Moslem palms-up gesture at the Pater Noster. I have no idea why this became fashionable, and I felt like giving them a good slapping.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-88484062894269312022012-12-02T10:28:12.679-05:002012-12-02T10:28:12.679-05:00Fr. McDonald,
You say, "I have watched our s...Fr. McDonald,<br /><br />You say, "I have watched our school children stand to receive Holy Communion at our school Masses and this year, I have watched them kneel to receive. There is a big difference and what is being conveyed to these children when they kneel is that something out of the ordinary is happening when they receive our Lord in Holy Communion and that they should fall to their knees in adoration! Isn't this what Pope Benedict is saying by insisting that people kneel when he distributes Holy Communion?"<br /><br />It is what the Holy Father is saying, but isn't it sad that it has come to this? Isn't it sad that proper adoration is out of the ordinary?<br /><br />When we talk about the crisis of faith, it all comes down to that. It all comes down to the fact that we have lost the ability to properly adore and worship God the Father, through the Son, from which the Holy Spirit proceeds. When we catechize, THAT is the crux of the new evangelization. THAT is the key to bringing Catholicism back.<br /><br />When we ask ourselves about the Mass, when we ask ourselves about Vatican Council II, we must ask does the reformed Mass convey proper adoration and proper worship based upon 2000 years of the Church? Does Vatican Council II convey proper theological, philosophical, and Catholic thought based upon 2000 years of the Church?<br /><br />We can argue about the form of the Mass and we will, we can argue about the Council and we will, we can argue about theology, philosophy and Catholic identity, and we will. What it all comes down to though is proper worship and adoration. If we understand those two things above all others then we understand the Church, not the Church since 1965, but the Church since her inception.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03009356356243871772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-67824794813892538872012-12-01T20:51:24.644-05:002012-12-01T20:51:24.644-05:00Any patristic text, taken out of context (the Chur...Any patristic text, taken out of context (the Church's magisterium), is being manipulated.<br /><br />Why not cite Gregory of Nyssa: " Gregory of Nyssa on the Jews: “God-murderers, prophet-murderers, fighters against God, God-haters, they who transgress the Law, they who fights grace, they who have another faith than the fathers, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers , those who have darkened minds, the leaven of the Pharisees, the sunedrion of the devil, Destroyers, thouroughly evil ones, the stoners, the haters of good. ”(Greg. Nyss. Or. in Christi Resurrect. 5).<br /><br />Gregory's words are not the last word, inasmuch as the Church has rejected this understanding of our elder brothers and sisters in faith. We have grown in our self-understanding as well as our understanding of through whom and in what circumstances God's grace is operative.<br /><br />Quoting patristic authors out of context is, in 99% of cases, either ignorance or self-serving dishonesty.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18771659876261266342012-12-01T17:55:12.496-05:002012-12-01T17:55:12.496-05:00Build a damn rail and let people approach it. Tel...Build a damn rail and let people approach it. Tell them they can stand at it or kneel, say that standing is the norm and kneeling is the over-1000-year practice of the Latin Church. I am convinced that people will start out with a hodgepodge of both practices, but it will quickly go to all or mostly kneeling like white on rice through peer pressure.<br /><br />Then after a while it will become normal, and it will make perfect sense. I think this would be a wonderful example of forcing through suggesting, and is quite in the mens of il Papa.ytcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52309178806363065262012-12-01T17:10:04.263-05:002012-12-01T17:10:04.263-05:00Pater Ignotus actually understates his case. Most ...Pater Ignotus actually understates his case. Most of the Mass is prayed in the first person plural, including most of the Offertory prayers and the Canon (and I'm going by the 1962 missal).John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-28548390541561961312012-12-01T16:47:11.077-05:002012-12-01T16:47:11.077-05:00Why do so many priests and clergy seem to be again...Why do so many priests and clergy seem to be against kneeling?rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-37687143240324785322012-12-01T16:40:57.178-05:002012-12-01T16:40:57.178-05:00"We must withdraw, nay rather must flee, from..."We must withdraw, nay rather must flee, from those who fall away, lest, while any one is associated with those who walk wickedly, and goes on in ways of error and of sin, he himself also, wandering away from the path of the true road, should be found in like guilt."<br /><br />St. Cyprian sounds just like a Director of Ecumenism, doesn't he?<br /><br />Of course, the doctrine has developed since his time. So, the Church now teaches we should reach out to the separated brethren instead of fleeing from them... Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82917801275906139652012-12-01T16:35:53.110-05:002012-12-01T16:35:53.110-05:00Such a one is to be turned away from and avoided, ...Such a one is to be turned away from and avoided, whosoever he may be, that is separated from the Church. Such a one is perverted and sins, and is condemned of his own self. Does he think that he has Christ, who acts in opposition to Christ's priests, who separates himself from the company of His clergy and people? He bears arms against the Church, he contends against God's appointment. An enemy of the altar, a rebel against Christ's sacrifice, for the faith faithless, for religion profane, a disobedient servant, an impious son, a hostile brother, despising the bishops, and forsaking God's priests, he dares to set up another altar, to make another prayer with unauthorized words, to profane the truth of the Lord's offering by false sacrifices, and not to know that he who strives against the appointment of God, is punished on account of the daring of his temerity by divine visitation.St. Cypriannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65648140050844730892012-12-01T16:20:40.786-05:002012-12-01T16:20:40.786-05:00If the norm is to receive standing, and if most co...If the norm is to receive standing, and if most communicants observe the norm, then use of the altar rail is not convenient and some sort of "prie-dieu" arrangement should be made if those who wish to receive kneeling are to be accommodated comfortably. But this means that the communicant must perform what amount to "physical jerks," as an Irish friend used to say (i.e., "calisthenic" exercises), and it also slows the line. It is much more gracious and well-flowing for communicants ro kneel at the altar rail. This allows for repose and time for prayer, brief meditation, and reverence, with less concentration of effort and attention on the mere logistics of coming and going. Those who prefer to receive standing can stand at the break or gateway between the two parts or "sides" of the altar rail. Another advantage of kneeling at the altar rail, which I miss greatly and would think would be desired by those who prefer the more "communitarian" aspects of postconciliar worship, is its neighborly, shoulder-to-shoulder character. <br /><br /> Ancil PayneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62411616610191952222012-12-01T15:49:38.884-05:002012-12-01T15:49:38.884-05:00Marc - I know the meaning of "sarcasm" t...Marc - I know the meaning of "sarcasm" thanks. No, Cyprian would not denounce me (or anyone else) for being the Director of Ecumenism. <br /><br />Once again you read an author - Cyprian in this case - out of context and arrive at a false understanding of the Church's teaching on ecumenism. Reading Cyprian apart from the 1754 years of magisterial teaching since he died is the error. He is only one part of the theological tradition of the Church in this matter.<br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-27401787094929515322012-12-01T15:40:12.094-05:002012-12-01T15:40:12.094-05:00"How many of our youth would feel uncomfortab..."How many of our youth would feel uncomfortable kneeling to receive Holy Communion? Would they even understand its significance? Do they even know the meaning of kneeling?"<br /><br />I don't know. But I think more would be willing to do so if their priests explained why they might like to try it, and how it can help them nourish their faith.<br /><br />For one thing, such a sermon or homily might impress upon them why humility is needed-- because of what Jesus working in them enables them to do and to be. Namely, finding out who they truly are in Christ and everything they've been given (alas, since our "WWJD?" culture tends to dumb Jesus down to some nice hippie, I'm not sure a lot of people yet understand the "bigness" of Jesus, the Cross, and thus Catholicism: alas, when we mention "bigness," enough people see that as necessarily including everything under the sun, and not that dogma, doctrine, and discipline lay out clearly what we believe so we can in fact see in the expansive way that God wants us to). Everything that Catholics believe and what the Church teaches and why comes down to that, and to the Incarnation and the Eucharist. That's what makes the faith accessible to all.<br /><br />I think the subject of kneeling for Communion is good introduction to St. Anselm of Canterbury's famous line that "I believe so that I may understand." I can tell you that I was first inspired to kneel for Communion in my Novus Ordo parish because of the witness of two small children and an older lady, who also veiled. So now I kneel also and I veil (and everyone has been either positive about it or they say nothing-- so I've not gotten any "self-righteous, holier-than-thou traddie doily-head" comments). I've also felt less self-conscious doing so, and I've seen that reverence work in my life. This comes gradually, so I think it's also important to let young Catholics know that the appetite does come with the meal, and that understanding is the wages of faith-- it unfolds, develops, and grows throughout one's life, so one doesn't "get it" all at once. Love, after all, is not just a feeling, but also an act of the will.WSquarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-65186520992638897562012-12-01T14:41:07.220-05:002012-12-01T14:41:07.220-05:00And St. Cyprian would likely denounce you as a her...And St. Cyprian would likely denounce you as a heretic simply for holding the office of Director of Ecumenism or whatever it is you do for the diocese...<br /><br />Also, you might want to look up "sarcasm" in the dictionary.Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66256397157904348452012-12-01T14:38:41.292-05:002012-12-01T14:38:41.292-05:00So you also don't believe heretic baptisms to ...So you also don't believe heretic baptisms to be valid? Interesting.Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66112748072879704112012-12-01T14:33:09.546-05:002012-12-01T14:33:09.546-05:00Marc - you guess....wrongly.Marc - you guess....wrongly.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-10952512209975803482012-12-01T13:58:44.909-05:002012-12-01T13:58:44.909-05:00Interesting to see you quote St. Cyprian, Father. ...Interesting to see you quote St. Cyprian, Father. I'm guessing you and he have very little in common as it concerns theology, particularly ecclesiology and ecumenism.<br /><br />There is a strong argument that St. Cyprian was quite hostile to Traditional Catholicism, actually. Didn't he argue with the Pope for some years and deny the validity of the baptism of heretics...? Come to think of it, that might make him the "poster-saint" for Traditional Catholicism! Ha!Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-60251809483665480102012-12-01T11:26:26.247-05:002012-12-01T11:26:26.247-05:00Oh, and I don't think St. Cyprian is "hos...Oh, and I don't think St. Cyprian is "hostile" to "Traditional" Catholicism.Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-69028478024154868772012-12-01T11:23:45.897-05:002012-12-01T11:23:45.897-05:00The requirement from Liturgiam Authenticam (LA) th...The requirement from Liturgiam Authenticam (LA) that resulted in the “singularization” of the first person pronoun used in the Creed (“We believe…” has become “I believe…”) does not apply in this case, unless LA does apply to such local prayers and there is a Latin original that uses the singular. This is not the case with the diocessan vocations prayer.<br /><br />There are many prayers in the Roman Missal that make use of the first person plural pronoun. For the 12th Sunday in Ordinary time:<br /> <br />Collect: “Grant, O Lord, that WE may always revere…”<br />Prayer Over the Offerings: “…WE may make offering of a heart pleasing to you”<br />Prayer After Communion: “…WE ask your mercy, O Lord,…”<br /> <br />In the prayers for the Order of Mass, the Purification prayer says:<br />“What has passed OUR lips as food, O Lord, may WE possess in purity of heart…”<br /> <br />A thought from the Office of Readings from Monday of the 11th Week of Ordinary Time:<br /> <br />“Above all, he who preaches peace and unity did not want us to pray by ourselves in private or for ourselves alone. We do not pray, ‘My Father, who art in heaven,’ nor ‘Give me this day my daily bread.’ It is not for himself alone that each person asks to be forgiven, not to be led into temptation or to be delivered from evil. Rather, we pray in public as a community, and not for one individual but for all.” (From a treatise on the Lord’s Prayer by St. Cyprian)<br /><br />Our vocations prayer is for the entire diocese. "We" pray it not for one, but for all.<br /> <br />Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-70860848318844334852012-12-01T10:23:23.127-05:002012-12-01T10:23:23.127-05:00In the parish Carol and I attended they do as litt...In the parish Carol and I attended they do as little kneeling as possible. It is considered a model for the Archdiocese. Akin opened a can of worms with the statement that 'kneeling was seen by some as servile'. Well, 'Duh!' That is exactly the point we are accepting the Lord of the Universe and hopefully in the spirit of Our Holy Mother: Do with me as you will. I kneel with absolute trust and I have that complete submission and commitment to no one else. Dang straight it is servile. Unworthy? It is the pinnacle. rcghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09131930849106490711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68226399879528920622012-12-01T10:03:02.248-05:002012-12-01T10:03:02.248-05:00"I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass ret..."I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass returned simply to mandating that Holy Communion be distributed to the Laity as they kneel in adoration, we would see a major shift toward humility in our worship and more Catholics in the future "strongly affiliated with the Church."<br /><br />While this is self-evident to most who have eyes to see--and this includes most of the many priests I know personally, because they see it up close--it occurs to me that kneeling for Holy Communion probably was never mandatory in the past, was done simply because of the humility and reverence people already felt.<br /><br />Perhaps which is the horse and which the cart changes from one period to another. Henry Edwardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-41512482099952685552012-12-01T09:42:29.512-05:002012-12-01T09:42:29.512-05:00"I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass ret..."I am convinced that if the Catholic Mass returned simply to mandating that Holy Communion be distributed to the Laity as they kneel in adoration, we would see a major shift toward humility in our worship and more Catholics in the future "strongly affiliated with the Church."<br /><br />What convinces you of this?Pater Ignotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-20262673946286526852012-12-01T07:35:49.367-05:002012-12-01T07:35:49.367-05:00You see Father, the problem with posts like this o...You see Father, the problem with posts like this one you've published today is that we are living in an age that is virulently opposed to such notions as objective truth and common sense. Joe Shlabotnicknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-90400603257793716682012-12-01T06:57:32.588-05:002012-12-01T06:57:32.588-05:00But, our "concerned" Bishop still though...But, our "concerned" Bishop still thought it appropriate to change the "I" in the Vocations Prayer to a "we." He obviously cannot see that such liberties, and the implications thereof, are a part of the very problem we are discussing. Not only that, he gets some mod Priest who is generally hostile to Traditional Catholicism and the theological understandings that go with it to re-write the prayer. I am not encouraged. Bishops, generally, are far more a source of anxiety than of comfort. Being largely political animals, they sway with the breeze and avail themselves of huge amounts of psycho-politico babble in an effort not to offend anyone. There are notable and happy exceptions, some of whom we have discussed on this blog. Go re-read the encounters of Friar Tuck with the Bishop in "Ivanhoe." Tuck nailed it. LOL!Genehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06672484450736725268noreply@blogger.com