tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post1014238117781330844..comments2024-03-28T20:30:10.681-04:00Comments on southern orders: SOME HOW I MISSED THIS IN THEOLOGY CLASS! DID YOU?Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-29471448406065053852017-12-17T16:14:21.626-05:002017-12-17T16:14:21.626-05:00Gene,
Maybe you are converting Kavanaugh to Catho...Gene,<br /><br />Maybe you are converting Kavanaugh to Catholicism. Keep up the good work!!! TJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-24095625374276979162017-12-16T17:32:24.502-05:002017-12-16T17:32:24.502-05:00Dang...Kavanaugh and I are agreeing on something.....Dang...Kavanaugh and I are agreeing on something...that is twice now. I'm concerned.Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-25224151862285455362017-12-16T11:12:34.740-05:002017-12-16T11:12:34.740-05:00Marc, Actually what I said was, "If it's ...Marc, Actually what I said was, "If it's just a "pious belief" then it is not a "teaching of the Church."<br /><br />Not every "pious belief" is, or should be, or even can be, a matter of doctrine.<br /><br />I suppose some "pious beliefs" can be (or become) matters of doctrine, but I suspect it is unlikely.<br /><br />Gene and I take somewhat different paths to arrive at the same point. "Interpretational stretches," of scripture and doctrine, lead to difficulties. <br /><br />I still wonder if Echert is suggesting this matter is doctrinal. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-59006439744709858752017-12-16T06:24:19.007-05:002017-12-16T06:24:19.007-05:00There are a number of things that the Church teach...There are a number of things that the Church teaches that are based upon Scripture but are not clearly stated in Scripture. There are also certain doctrines that the Church teaches that are interpretations of Scripture, but not actually found there. As long as we understand and believe that the Church is established by Christ to proclaim His truth and that, therefore, these interpretations of Scripture are true and valid because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit, everything is fine. However, once in a while you will find an interpretational stretch. No, Henry, and Marc, you can't get the Calvin completely out of me...and I still like TULIP theology. Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-82132554308481972912017-12-15T15:30:31.238-05:002017-12-15T15:30:31.238-05:00Henry,
I have no doubt in your recollection. The ...Henry,<br /><br />I have no doubt in your recollection. The Church was far superior then to what it is today. We're now vying to go out of business with the EpiscopalsTJMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-30010918367322032902017-12-15T14:35:11.054-05:002017-12-15T14:35:11.054-05:00Gene said...Completely non-Biblical, but liberties...Gene said...Completely non-Biblical, but liberties have always been taken. <br /><br />"You can take the boy out of the Prots, but you can't take the Prots out of the boy."<br /><br />At any rate, it sounds like I may be to the only one whose adult memories stretch back to a time when Catholic parish life provided a rich and all-pervading spiritual atmosphere filled with thoroughly Catholic but often non-doctrinal pious beliefs (and even harmless myths).Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-12136201106136256072017-12-15T09:18:47.999-05:002017-12-15T09:18:47.999-05:00It's interesting to me how much Gene's &qu...It's interesting to me how much Gene's "this is non-Biblical" mirrors Kavanaugh's "this is not a teaching of the Church because it's 'just' a pious belief."Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-31106739348413472002017-12-15T07:41:40.393-05:002017-12-15T07:41:40.393-05:00is this another possible example of "prevanie...is this another possible example of "prevanient" grace being applied to someone? Joseph Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00036852763902493131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-86296661243745354662017-12-14T22:52:32.746-05:002017-12-14T22:52:32.746-05:00I was not aware that this was official doctrine, ...I was not aware that this was official doctrine, but i have certainly heard this as a common belief, or a pious custom. GenXBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15298459502431357489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87916653946176354232017-12-14T20:35:19.838-05:002017-12-14T20:35:19.838-05:00Actually, I knew this. I read a lot of old and mu...Actually, I knew this. I read a lot of old and musty Catholic books. Adam Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-52171792740241796402017-12-14T20:22:49.985-05:002017-12-14T20:22:49.985-05:00I hadn't heard this before, but it does make s...I hadn't heard this before, but it does make sense. Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Spirit" as the gospel says. Wouldn't this mean that John the Baptist was immersed in holy-water for about 3 months?Carol H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02475843499648488542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-4371148222677555212017-12-14T19:59:03.657-05:002017-12-14T19:59:03.657-05:00Completely non-Biblical, but liberties have always...Completely non-Biblical, but liberties have always been taken. Let us pray that God blesses these liberties and that the Church was led by the Holy Spirit in conjuring them.Genenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-68558322306209104312017-12-14T18:17:00.862-05:002017-12-14T18:17:00.862-05:00I'm not clear on what level of authority Fr. E...I'm not clear on what level of authority Fr. Echert gives thus notion.<br /><br />"This teaching of the Church, rooted in Sacred Scripture, is probably not well known in modern times, even by many pastors and theologians. However, the truth of Tradition and the Bible still stands."<br /><br />Does he mean it is doctrine when he says, "This teaching of the Church, rooted in Sacred Scripture,..."?<br /><br />If it's just a "pious belief" then it is not a "teaching of the Church."<br /><br />An earlier marriage for St. Joseph is a "pious belief" held by many, but not a teaching or doctrine.<br /><br />Henry - I suspect I did not hear it in 22 years of Catholic schooling because it is only a pious belief and, as such, not something that would necessarily be presented in any religion class. Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-46106928553433490812017-12-14T15:16:08.337-05:002017-12-14T15:16:08.337-05:00Fr. McDonald,
Wouldn't be in the Baltimore Ca...Fr. McDonald,<br /><br />Wouldn't be in the Baltimore Catechism because it's not a truth of the faith no even a common theological position, merely a "pious belief" that's not defined or part of the Church's universal ordinary teaching, but is commonly held and consistent with Catholic faith and practice. Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-66884089766300763182017-12-14T15:03:05.467-05:002017-12-14T15:03:05.467-05:00Fr. Kavanaugh,
"I spent 22 years in Catholic...Fr. Kavanaugh,<br /><br />"I spent 22 years in Catholic schools, from kindergarten through seminary (1963-1985) and never heard this information."<br /><br />Alas, hardly surprising. Not to a father whose kids (like mine) cumulatively logged a good deal more than 22 years in Catholic schools, kindergarten through college.Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-19455127085134627912017-12-14T14:54:51.563-05:002017-12-14T14:54:51.563-05:00This isn’t new to me, but I learned of it from the...This isn’t new to me, but I learned of it from the Orthodox priest who catechized me (without the original sin stuff, obviously). Marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13510317669833026685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-14882621301940969192017-12-14T14:47:47.034-05:002017-12-14T14:47:47.034-05:00I find it odd that it isn't in the Baltimore C...I find it odd that it isn't in the Baltimore Catechism, any version, as the author of the answer to the question seems to place it on the level of a doctrine which is somewhat developed but certainly not infallibly proclaims. Thus I presume a Catholic could choose to believe or not believe it similar to approved Marian apparitions. <br /><br />But the real oddity is that Limbo for unbaptized babies is found in the Baltimore Catechism and this is more a theological position, not an outright formulated doctrine, and one that Catholics may choose to believe or not. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-6012445030356794352017-12-14T14:37:49.696-05:002017-12-14T14:37:49.696-05:00Henry - I spent 22 years in Catholic schools, from...Henry - I spent 22 years in Catholic schools, from kindergarten through seminary (1963-1985) and never heard this information.<br /><br />I would like to be able to read the document of Pope Innocent. St Augustine's comment quoted by Echert seems to be made in passing.Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-45611912892818647162017-12-14T14:17:01.843-05:002017-12-14T14:17:01.843-05:00Was not taught this pre or post Vatican II and cer...Was not taught this pre or post Vatican II and certainly isn't in the Baltimore Catechism. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-91362841962237033822017-12-14T13:58:48.434-05:002017-12-14T13:58:48.434-05:00Surely, the traditional Catholic belief that John ...Surely, the traditional Catholic belief that John the Baptist was cleansed of sin when he "leapt for joy" in Elizabeth's womb at the approach of Jesus in Mary's womb, is not new to the traditionally worshiping Catholic.<br /><br />One can only wonder what <i><b>did</b></i> they teach you poor fellows in those feckless 1970s/80s seminaries. Anything at all, about Catholicism?Henryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12780755069760197497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-71772855315487400902017-12-14T12:09:04.349-05:002017-12-14T12:09:04.349-05:00I have heard this before.I have heard this before.Agnesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-62766023066827138102017-12-14T11:03:13.730-05:002017-12-14T11:03:13.730-05:00Qwikeness, John the Baptist was conceived with ori...Qwikeness, John the Baptist was conceived with original sin, only cleansed of it when our Blessed Mother brought John and Elizabeth into the presence of Jesus in her womb, thus the "leaping for joy." <br /><br />He was faithful to his original sin being washed away, but still suffered the disorders of it, including death and decay as we do after our baptism, even if we are incapable of committing sin.<br /><br />Thus only Mary is conceived with out Original sin.<br /><br />But all of this concerning John the Baptist is new to me, including his sinlessness--although possible for anyone who is baptized. Fr. Allan J. McDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16986575955114152639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-87081002754079688502017-12-14T10:59:20.814-05:002017-12-14T10:59:20.814-05:00New info to me.....New info to me.....Fr. Michael J. Kavanaughnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7846189835239594160.post-18188234607148514082017-12-14T10:58:15.821-05:002017-12-14T10:58:15.821-05:00I wondered about this because if Elizabeth was bar...I wondered about this because if Elizabeth was barren and by special grace was allowed to have a baby. Would that grace free him of Original Sin? However if he was without Original Sin and he died, wouldn't he have been assumed as well? Yet his relics (his head)still exist. So why would he not have been assumed? qwiknesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439450727837308035noreply@blogger.com