Marc, you might have adult men sitting on the steps of the stoop in their shorts and flip flops but certainly not in their tuxedo and patent leather shoes! In the most solemn for of the EF Mass, to see clerics sitting on the steps to the stoop of the bishop’s throne is like men in tuxedos sitting on the steps of a shack!
Adults (or younger people) can sit and wait and hold things in seats, chairs, benches, or a variety of other appropriate pieces of furniture.
Sitting on the floor in a cluster around a bishop is, to many, demeaning. Is it necessary that they sit on the floor, or is this some traditional arrangement that should be maintained simply because it is traditional?
"Paul" I doubt if anyone understands this pic like you do.... why do you assume anyone would understand 'what is wrong with the pic' when there is no context?
What I find so very peculiar about this custom and it is precisely that, a custom, is that it is in the context of the Church's most formal form of the Solemn Mass. Maybe not in Europe, I don't know, but in the USA sitting on the floor or the steps of a building be it a home or a church or some other institution is quite informal not formal and one normally does not do this wearing one's formal clothes.
There's a disconnect here. If I had the altar boys at an EF Mass or the altar servers at an OF Mass sit on the floor around me, I think people would wonder about that in the formal setting of the Mass.
Servers kneel on the floor during basically the entire low mass. Often, the priest kneels as well, along with the other ministers. Clerics even lay on the floor at times. On Good Friday, they remove their shoes to venerate the Cross.
These are all part of the Roman Rite as it’s been handed down to us.
In response to Anonymous at December 13, 2019 at 1:21 PM:
Picture of a priest offering snark instead of a kind response... I don't understand what's wrong with this. And to quote Anonymous, "No, of course you don't. Sadly, it is unlikely that you ever will."
Also, the custom in some places — France, I assume, since this happens at Institute masses — is for the servers to sit on the altar steps of the Epistle side during the sermon.
At any rate, there’s nothing demeaning about sitting on the floor or steps.
And Marc, dont forget that there was no reason, other than spite, for 'Paul' to try to demean you just for your comment. He may has issues with the blog owner, or me, but I dont think you have ever made mean spirited comments.
I am not really discussing this as "demeaning" although I think a case could be made for that. I am saying there is a disconnect taking place in the most formal liturgy of the Church with the optics of the most informal way people will sit on the floor or steps.
And the photo I have posted has adults doing sitting on the floor around the bishop which in fact from the optics point of view looks quite peculiar as though they are informally waiting for something to begin. They're chilling out until the start of the something.
I can't decide whose comments are the sillier - Fr Allan's attempts to make the liturgy conform with modern American tastes, or Anonymous's Kavanaugh-esque list of hilariously inapt analogies. I am grateful to the latter for informing me that children were working in Pennsylvania coalmines as late as 1906; the practice was outlawed in the UK in 1842. But then, the British Empire abolished slavery in 1833 without a bloody civil war.
Also, it takes a large amount of prudishness and identification with the more barmy feminists to object to a beauty contest, although such things belong to a saner and perhaps more innocent age.
The servers sitting on the steps of the episcopal throne in Clear Creek monastery are not lounging on the floor. Their posture is formal and dignified. Socrates's pupils sat at his feet; the disciples sat at the feet of Our Lord. Indeed the expression 'sitting at the feet of' has passed into the English language.
Fr Allan should realize he is the servant of the liturgy and not its master. I would not attend a Tridentine Mass if there was a risk that the celebrant might, at his own whim, put part or all of it into the vernacular. I have met no-one who hankered after a vernacular EF. If Fr McDonald is to be believed, things are different in the US. That's not my problem.
15 comments:
I don't understand what is wrong with this.
Marc, you might have adult men sitting on the steps of the stoop in their shorts and flip flops but certainly not in their tuxedo and patent leather shoes! In the most solemn for of the EF Mass, to see clerics sitting on the steps to the stoop of the bishop’s throne is like men in tuxedos sitting on the steps of a shack!
"Picture of 'Darkies' picking cotton in 1860 rural Georgia"
I don't understand what is wrong with this.
"Picture of women in revealing Catalina swimsuits and high heels in the Miss America Pageant"
I don't understand what is wrong with this.
"Picture of children working in coal mines in Wilkes-Barre in 1906"
I don't understand what is wrong with this.
"Picture of grown men in liturgical vesture sitting on the floor around a vested bishop.
I don't understand what wrong with this. All these pictures are scenes from tradition.
No, of course you don't. Sadly, it is unlikely that you ever will.
Those are servers sitting beside the bishop’s throne serving their liturgical function.
"Those are servers sitting beside the bishop’s throne serving their liturgical function."
And sitting on the floor fulfills what "liturgical function?"
Their function at that moment is sitting and waiting. They’re holding things for the bishop...
Adults (or younger people) can sit and wait and hold things in seats, chairs, benches, or a variety of other appropriate pieces of furniture.
Sitting on the floor in a cluster around a bishop is, to many, demeaning. Is it necessary that they sit on the floor, or is this some traditional arrangement that should be maintained simply because it is traditional?
It also gets your vestments dirty.
"Paul" I doubt if anyone understands this pic like you do.... why do you assume anyone would understand 'what is wrong with the pic' when there is no context?
Picky, picky 'Paul'
What I find so very peculiar about this custom and it is precisely that, a custom, is that it is in the context of the Church's most formal form of the Solemn Mass. Maybe not in Europe, I don't know, but in the USA sitting on the floor or the steps of a building be it a home or a church or some other institution is quite informal not formal and one normally does not do this wearing one's formal clothes.
There's a disconnect here. If I had the altar boys at an EF Mass or the altar servers at an OF Mass sit on the floor around me, I think people would wonder about that in the formal setting of the Mass.
Servers kneel on the floor during basically the entire low mass. Often, the priest kneels as well, along with the other ministers. Clerics even lay on the floor at times. On Good Friday, they remove their shoes to venerate the Cross.
These are all part of the Roman Rite as it’s been handed down to us.
Bee here:
In response to Anonymous at December 13, 2019 at 1:21 PM:
Picture of a priest offering snark instead of a kind response...
I don't understand what's wrong with this.
And to quote Anonymous, "No, of course you don't. Sadly, it is unlikely that you ever will."
God bless,
Bee
Also, the custom in some places — France, I assume, since this happens at Institute masses — is for the servers to sit on the altar steps of the Epistle side during the sermon.
At any rate, there’s nothing demeaning about sitting on the floor or steps.
And Marc, dont forget that there was no reason, other than spite, for 'Paul' to try to demean you just for your comment. He may has issues with the blog owner, or me, but I dont think you have ever made mean spirited comments.
'Paul' should apologize to you.
I am not really discussing this as "demeaning" although I think a case could be made for that. I am saying there is a disconnect taking place in the most formal liturgy of the Church with the optics of the most informal way people will sit on the floor or steps.
And the photo I have posted has adults doing sitting on the floor around the bishop which in fact from the optics point of view looks quite peculiar as though they are informally waiting for something to begin. They're chilling out until the start of the something.
I can't decide whose comments are the sillier - Fr Allan's attempts to make the liturgy conform with modern American tastes, or Anonymous's Kavanaugh-esque list of hilariously inapt analogies. I am grateful to the latter for informing me that children were working in Pennsylvania coalmines as late as 1906; the practice was outlawed in the UK in 1842. But then, the British Empire abolished slavery in 1833 without a bloody civil war.
Also, it takes a large amount of prudishness and identification with the more barmy feminists to object to a beauty contest, although such things belong to a saner and perhaps more innocent age.
The servers sitting on the steps of the episcopal throne in Clear Creek monastery are not lounging on the floor. Their posture is formal and dignified. Socrates's pupils sat at his feet; the disciples sat at the feet of Our Lord. Indeed the expression 'sitting at the feet of' has passed into the English language.
Fr Allan should realize he is the servant of the liturgy and not its master. I would not attend a Tridentine Mass if there was a risk that the celebrant might, at his own whim, put part or all of it into the vernacular. I have met no-one who hankered after a vernacular EF. If Fr McDonald is to be believed, things are different in the US. That's not my problem.
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