I'm also sick of him and the pope saying, "why are you kicking us around" over the perverts who abused boys (and to a lesser extent, girls). These pederasts were let in to the spotless Bride, one was too many. We should abhor it and to penance for it, not say, "well, we're not so bad you know, they were worse." Is this what Christ would say?
I consider myself a faithful, traditional Catholic. I love the Church, the Pope. I pray for him almost daily and am starting 3 Novenas for him and the Church tomorrow. However, there's a but..
But, since he has become Pope, I have felt like I have been back jerked around on an emotional roller coaster, as a fairly new Catholic, it has jolted me. But then again I could just be a neo-Promethean Pelagian rosary counter?
In all honesty, I think we need to call a spade a spade. Yes, the pope does say good things, but soon after he says something that jolts practicing Catholics (wasnt this Pius X's definition of modernism?). I'm going to echo my protestant friends when I say this..but when the world praises you SO MUCH, there is something that you are doing wrong, the world hated Benedict, and there is rarely a day that I do not miss him. For me personally, the only thing that Pope Francis has done is make it next-to-near impossible for me to convert my protestant friends and family because they see Pope Francis and it scares them, and no matter what I do I cannot make them see otherwise bc every other day something new comes out.
I love the Church, and I love this blog, I read it every day and it always gives me hope. But Fr. I would really appreciate it if occasionally you would just admit that he does and has sewed confusion.
In the end, I will stay Catholic, and continue to pray and offer up my sufferings for the pope and the Church.
I don't know how much stock you put in private revelation's Fr. but I came across this the other day and I had this "Catholic intuition" feeling:
-Bl. Anna Catherine Emmerich
“I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps…”
“I saw also the relationship between the two popes. . . I saw how baleful would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city (of Rome). The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness...
“I saw in Germany among world-wise ecclesiastics, and enlightened Protestants, plans formed for the blending of religious creeds, the suppression of Papal authority, the appointment of more superiors, the diminishing of expenses and number of ecclesiastics, etc., which projects found abettors in many of the Roman prelates.”
The only point made when certain prelates take a certain position (defensive) is when they are put on the spot by certain people in the media who want to make the abuse crisis a Roman Catholic problem linked to an overall bias about the Church and her moral teachings. There is nothing wrong with reminding people the problem of the Church is a problem faced by most large, powerful, and (to a certain degree) guarded organization. Sexual immorality among the clergy is not a 20th century Catholic problem, is it? And the covering-up of sexual immortality is not a 20th century Catholic problem, is it?
Sexual depravity is what it is. It is ugly and human and so very sad.
Jumping to another point:
When one has to quote from Anne Catherine Emmerich (and drag out poor Pius X too) one can be sure to some degree a person has been drinking from the fountain of a certain mindset.
One must remember that “I” am not the voice of the Church. And the various quotes “I” take from mystics and papal encyclicals are not the voice of the Church.
As for this “I,” I am more concerned about my own particular judgment. I am not immune from the sentiment Francis creates around certain quotes. I do not like it. But I can hear Our Lord saying: “And was it your place to so harshly judge my vicar’s words. Who do you think put them in his mouth? And who do you think placed those ill thoughts in yours, it certainly wasn't me.”
Pope Emeritus Benedict led those Westerners who followed him into a deeper appreciation for reverent liturgy. I wish Pope Francis had this same focus.
However, reading the works and statements of Pope Francis makes it clear to me that Francis is a deeply Catholic pope, adhering to every word of the Catechism.
The Lord commands us to go forth and preach the Gospel, which Francis is doing. But commemorators here seem to find the Holy Father's fidelity to this command abhorrent. It's as if they've condemned most of the world's inhabitants and see no point in Pope Francis trying to convert them.
You must think that there were no evil men who occupied the position of the Vicar of Christ or Bishop of Rome in the past. This is not true. God permitted it or he ordained for His reasons, but to say that just because he is pope that he is infallible or right about everything he says simply because he is the pope, is simply not Catholic.
We have every right to question him and his words. If he said tomorrow that the moon was made of cream cheese would it make it true? Popes are men, they have grace of office but they can make mistakes. They can be surrounded by wolves and they can be deceived. He can only not err when he proclaims that what he is teaching is a matter of faith and morals and when he does it "ex cathedra". To believe otherwise is protestant.
This Pope has caused no confusion in me, I know my faith; but he is causing confusion in millions of others, Catholic and non Catholics and non Christians. He and Hummes and Kasper and Dolan and the rest of them have undertaken no less than a revolution.
If my words condemn me, then I throw myself on the Lord's mercy, I can do no other, but I must speak the truth.
When he came out on the loggia last year at this time, I wanted to vomit for hours. I had a sense then of foreboding and it has not eased up one iota.
...and as for the words of Blessed mystics such as Bl. Anne Katherine, we are a mystical faith. Discount her if you will, you need not believe her writings. While you are at it, discount St Catharine of Sienna, St. Bridget of Sweden, St. Pio and Lucy of Fatima too.
"Francis is a deeply Catholic pope, adhering to every word of the Catechism."
Indeed, he is, without any doubt. But one can still wonder whether his message is so clear and unambiguous as to lead others to adhere to every word of the CCC. Or do some of the signals he sends create confusion in some minds as to how seriously to take those words?
Yes, Henry, exactly so. The problem IMO is not where the faithful will be lead (the faithful are always just that!) but where his utterances lead the not-so-faithful. He does seem like a warm, caring person who very much wishes to model the Christian walk that Jesus spent his time on earth teaching us--Wish he were my pastor... That said, he may well have the problem of speaking without thinking carefully enough. I can relate to that!
I believe the sowing of confusion is a ploy to lay an ambiguous groundwork for liberalizing the Church. Surely, he knows by now that he has caused much consternation and ambivalence. The fact that he continues in the same vein indicates to me an agenda.
I'm afraid the only secular news I follow is NPR's All Things Considered, which, though liberal, is not sensationalist. Therefore, it could be that I'm missing something here. At any rate, I've been reading the writings and homily transcripts of Pope Francis, and I just don't see any problem with what he says. His main point always seems to be that we must introduce the world to Jesus Christ first, and only then tell the newly converted about right and wrong. That seems like a perfectly reasonable order of dialogue to me. I know some of the Holy Father's words are being manipulated by murderous and pornographic forces, by I grew up in a Protestant world where even the words of Christ and Saint Paul were routinely twisted to contradict the Gospel.
JBS, If one knows that one's words are likely to be twisted by the media and enemies of the Church, it would seem to me that one would be very careful to be as direct, unambiguous, and concise as possible. This is not rocket science. It appears to me that the Pope is enjoying all the hoopla, confusion, and concern. How else can one interpret it?
“I had a sense then of foreboding and it has not eased up one iota.”
1. If one puts the writings of Anne Katherine Emmerich on the same level as some of those other mentioned mystics then there is a real problem – and I am sure you know what that problem is. There is good reason the Church set aside her writings in bringing forward (again) her cause for canonization.
2. Yes. All manner of men have sat on the throne of St. Peter: saints and sinners alike.
3. I know (why not assume like everyone else) who is behind all this ill will towards the Holy Father. It isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ.
Father, to be honest, others have said to me that they no longer read what Pope Francis says - I don't either - because I don't want my Faith shaken any more than it has been in the last year.
We have survived the last 40 years, despite all that has been thrown at us by the local Church, but there was always the safe and certain knowledge that we had good strong Popes and that shored us up. That is no longer the case so in God alone we trust. No Pope can take that away at least ...
20 comments:
"Is he sowing confusion among the faithful?" Duh...
I've had enough of all of them.
I'm also sick of him and the pope saying, "why are you kicking us around" over the perverts who abused boys (and to a lesser extent, girls). These pederasts were let in to the spotless Bride, one was too many. We should abhor it and to penance for it, not say, "well, we're not so bad you know, they were worse." Is this what Christ would say?
I'm going to agree with Gene.
I consider myself a faithful, traditional Catholic. I love the Church, the Pope. I pray for him almost daily and am starting 3 Novenas for him and the Church tomorrow. However, there's a but..
But, since he has become Pope, I have felt like I have been back jerked around on an emotional roller coaster, as a fairly new Catholic, it has jolted me. But then again I could just be a
neo-Promethean Pelagian rosary counter?
In all honesty, I think we need to call a spade a spade. Yes, the pope does say good things, but soon after he says something that jolts practicing Catholics (wasnt this Pius X's definition of modernism?). I'm going to echo my protestant friends when I say this..but when the world praises you SO MUCH, there is something that you are doing wrong, the world hated Benedict, and there is rarely a day that I do not miss him.
For me personally, the only thing that Pope Francis has done is make it next-to-near impossible for me to convert my protestant friends and family because they see Pope Francis and it scares them, and no matter what I do I cannot make them see otherwise bc every other day something new comes out.
I love the Church, and I love this blog, I read it every day and it always gives me hope. But Fr. I would really appreciate it if occasionally you would just admit that he does and has sewed confusion.
In the end, I will stay Catholic, and continue to pray and offer up my sufferings for the pope and the Church.
I don't know how much stock you put in private revelation's Fr. but I came across this the other day and I had this "Catholic intuition" feeling:
-Bl. Anna Catherine Emmerich
“I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps…”
“I saw also the relationship between the two popes. . . I saw how baleful would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city (of Rome). The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness...
“I saw in Germany among world-wise ecclesiastics, and enlightened Protestants, plans formed for the blending of religious creeds, the suppression of Papal authority, the appointment of more superiors, the diminishing of expenses and number of ecclesiastics, etc., which projects found abettors in many of the Roman prelates.”
Yes, Vox, the old "we suck less than they do" defense. LOL!
Yes, he is sowing confusion, and it's rather annoying...but watching everyone trying to stretch what the Pope says is sometimes fun...
First part:
The only point made when certain prelates take a certain position (defensive) is when they are put on the spot by certain people in the media who want to make the abuse crisis a Roman Catholic problem linked to an overall bias about the Church and her moral teachings. There is nothing wrong with reminding people the problem of the Church is a problem faced by most large, powerful, and (to a certain degree) guarded organization. Sexual immorality among the clergy is not a 20th century Catholic problem, is it? And the covering-up of sexual immortality is not a 20th century Catholic problem, is it?
Sexual depravity is what it is. It is ugly and human and so very sad.
Jumping to another point:
When one has to quote from Anne Catherine Emmerich (and drag out poor Pius X too) one can be sure to some degree a person has been drinking from the fountain of a certain mindset.
One must remember that “I” am not the voice of the Church. And the various quotes “I” take from mystics and papal encyclicals are not the voice of the Church.
As for this “I,” I am more concerned about my own particular judgment. I am not immune from the sentiment Francis creates around certain quotes. I do not like it. But I can hear Our Lord saying: “And was it your place to so harshly judge my vicar’s words. Who do you think put them in his mouth? And who do you think placed those ill thoughts in yours, it certainly wasn't me.”
Pope Emeritus Benedict led those Westerners who followed him into a deeper appreciation for reverent liturgy. I wish Pope Francis had this same focus.
However, reading the works and statements of Pope Francis makes it clear to me that Francis is a deeply Catholic pope, adhering to every word of the Catechism.
The Lord commands us to go forth and preach the Gospel, which Francis is doing. But commemorators here seem to find the Holy Father's fidelity to this command abhorrent. It's as if they've condemned most of the world's inhabitants and see no point in Pope Francis trying to convert them.
Dear Nathaniel,
You must think that there were no evil men who occupied the position of the Vicar of Christ or Bishop of Rome in the past. This is not true. God permitted it or he ordained for His reasons, but to say that just because he is pope that he is infallible or right about everything he says simply because he is the pope, is simply not Catholic.
We have every right to question him and his words. If he said tomorrow that the moon was made of cream cheese would it make it true? Popes are men, they have grace of office but they can make mistakes. They can be surrounded by wolves and they can be deceived. He can only not err when he proclaims that what he is teaching is a matter of faith and morals and when he does it "ex cathedra". To believe otherwise is protestant.
This Pope has caused no confusion in me, I know my faith; but he is causing confusion in millions of others, Catholic and non Catholics and non Christians. He and Hummes and Kasper and Dolan and the rest of them have undertaken no less than a revolution.
If my words condemn me, then I throw myself on the Lord's mercy, I can do no other, but I must speak the truth.
When he came out on the loggia last year at this time, I wanted to vomit for hours. I had a sense then of foreboding and it has not eased up one iota.
Miserere mei, Domine.
...and as for the words of Blessed mystics such as Bl. Anne Katherine, we are a mystical faith. Discount her if you will, you need not believe her writings. While you are at it, discount St Catharine of Sienna, St. Bridget of Sweden, St. Pio and Lucy of Fatima too.
"Francis is a deeply Catholic pope, adhering to every word of the Catechism."
Indeed, he is, without any doubt. But one can still wonder whether his message is so clear and unambiguous as to lead others to adhere to every word of the CCC. Or do some of the signals he sends create confusion in some minds as to how seriously to take those words?
Yes, Henry, exactly so.
The problem IMO is not where the faithful will be lead (the faithful are always just that!) but where his utterances lead the not-so-faithful.
He does seem like a warm, caring person who very much wishes to model the Christian walk that Jesus spent his time on earth teaching us--Wish he were my pastor... That said, he may well have the problem of speaking without thinking carefully enough. I can relate to that!
I believe the sowing of confusion is a ploy to lay an ambiguous groundwork for liberalizing the Church. Surely, he knows by now that he has caused much consternation and ambivalence. The fact that he continues in the same vein indicates to me an agenda.
Henry,
I'm afraid the only secular news I follow is NPR's All Things Considered, which, though liberal, is not sensationalist. Therefore, it could be that I'm missing something here. At any rate, I've been reading the writings and homily transcripts of Pope Francis, and I just don't see any problem with what he says. His main point always seems to be that we must introduce the world to Jesus Christ first, and only then tell the newly converted about right and wrong. That seems like a perfectly reasonable order of dialogue to me. I know some of the Holy Father's words are being manipulated by murderous and pornographic forces, by I grew up in a Protestant world where even the words of Christ and Saint Paul were routinely twisted to contradict the Gospel.
I'm guessing no one saw that Hans Kung is ecstatic about him
JBS, If one knows that one's words are likely to be twisted by the media and enemies of the Church, it would seem to me that one would be very careful to be as direct, unambiguous, and concise as possible. This is not rocket science. It appears to me that the Pope is enjoying all the hoopla, confusion, and concern. How else can one interpret it?
Certainly, it is no surprise that Kung loves him. I'm sure Kung will get an engraved invitation to the Vatican.
Pope Benedict, shortly after being elected invited Kung to the Vatican to meet with him and they did.
“I had a sense then of foreboding and it has not eased up one iota.”
1. If one puts the writings of Anne Katherine Emmerich on the same level as some of those other mentioned mystics then there is a real problem – and I am sure you know what that problem is. There is good reason the Church set aside her writings in bringing forward (again) her cause for canonization.
2. Yes. All manner of men have sat on the throne of St. Peter: saints and sinners alike.
3. I know (why not assume like everyone else) who is behind all this ill will towards the Holy Father. It isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ.
Father, to be honest, others have said to me that they no longer read what Pope Francis says - I don't either - because I don't want my Faith shaken any more than it has been in the last year.
We have survived the last 40 years, despite all that has been thrown at us by the local Church, but there was always the safe and certain knowledge that we had good strong Popes and that shored us up. That is no longer the case so in God alone we trust. No Pope can take that away at least ...
Jan
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